144 replies to this topic

[THBatMan8]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 04:08 PM, said:

And you are an idiot if you think no one cares with two F-15s crash. Their families, friends, and neighbors care, plus that's about $80 million dollars of your money and mine going up in flames, so the tax payers and DoD also cares.

I was referring to the media. Your average national media network won't broadcast a collision of 2 F-15's as their main headline. Why? Because the public doesn't really care. When the same scenario happens to two 747's, then you'll get a public response out of it. It's the same thing with car accidents. The bigger the carnage, the more ratings the media gets for covering it.

Edited by THBatMan8, 25 August 2010 - 03:13 PM.

[Prancer]

THBatMan8, on Aug 25 2010, 03:12 PM, said:

I was referring to the media. Your average national media network won't broadcast a collision of 2 F-15's as their main headline. Why? Because the public doesn't really care. When the same scenario happens to two 747's, then you'll get a public response out of it.

No, it's because the media looooooooooooooooooooooooooooves it when hundreds die. It's a good story for them. And the public only cares because they think 'oh, I'll die my next flight!'

As for me, I care a HECK of a lot more when a defender of my freedom dies than about 300 or so average joes I have absolutely no connection to.

Edited by Yay4Afterburners, 25 August 2010 - 03:15 PM.

[E-Jet]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 05:08 PM, said:

1, 2, and 3.) That's why you have spacing both horizontal and vertical, maintain a good visual on the lead plane, and be ready to break formation at any time. The reverse V is actually a brilliant formation, too, since you have a pilot in the slot who can see all the other planes at all times, acting as a safety.

And you are an idiot if you think no one cares with two F-15s crash. Their families, friends, and neighbors care, plus that's about $80 million dollars of your money and mine going up in flames, so the tax payers and DoD also cares.

So what if you into clouds?

[THBatMan8]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 04:13 PM, said:

No, it's because the media looooooooooooooooooooooooooooves it when hundreds die. It's a good story for them. And the public only cares because they think 'oh, I'll die my next flight!'

Finally, something we agree on.  

[Prancer]

Embraer, on Aug 25 2010, 03:15 PM, said:

So what if you into clouds?

Just keep flying straight and level, and listen for voice calls. Same way military formations do it when they break into clouds.

If an aerobatic team flying three feet apart in rolls and loops can go through clouds safely, so can airliners flying straight and level with a half mile separation.

[AmericanAirFan]

It's been done before. I forget what exactly it was on but it was on the History channel.

[FL050]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 02:34 PM, said:

I've yet to hear of a plane stalling due to formation flight.

...what does that have to do with anything?  Are you saying it doesn't happen?

I really want to respond to all of your  supposed "logic" you are trying to make based off of assumptions of aerodynamics, but I don't really feel like typing it all.

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 02:58 PM, said:

What risks? You have trained pilots flying planes of the same mass together...it's not any different than a formation of fighters or bombers, just on a different scale...

First of all, no - they are totally different.

Have you ever hear of ANYONE saying mid-air refueling was easy?  What happens when you throw a couple airliners in that mix?  You want to put your family on the first trial run?  Ya know, since it is so easy and fighter jets do it all the time.

Well I tried not to respond to another, but I'm done this time!

Edited by FL050, 25 August 2010 - 08:05 PM.

[E-Jet]

FL050, on Aug 25 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

...what does that have to do with anything?  Are you saying it doesn't happen?

I really want to respond to all of your  supposed "logic" you are trying to make based off of assumptions of aerodynamics, but I don't really feel like typing it all.
First of all, no - they are totally different.

Have you ever hear of ANYONE saying mid-air refueling was easy?  What happens when you throw a couple airliners in that mix?  You want to put your family on the first trial run?  Ya know, since it is so easy and fighter jets do it all the time.

Well I tried not to respond to another, but I'm done this time!

His logic is perfect! Haven't you heard? Anything that goes higher then 10,000 feet is a airplane!   jk

Edited by Embraer, 25 August 2010 - 08:17 PM.

[Prancer]

FL050, on Aug 25 2010, 08:04 PM, said:

...what does that have to do with anything?  Are you saying it doesn't happen?

I really want to respond to all of your  supposed "logic" you are trying to make based off of assumptions of aerodynamics, but I don't really feel like typing it all.
First of all, no - they are totally different.

Everything, and no they're not. They're big, flying pieces of metal with a person at the controls. The video I posted proved they are just as capable of formation flight.

Quote

Have you ever hear of ANYONE saying mid-air refueling was easy?  What happens when you throw a couple airliners in that mix?  You want to put your family on the first trial run?  Ya know, since it is so easy and fighter jets do it all the time.

Well I tried not to respond to another, but I'm done this time!

I don't think the airliners will be flying 10-20 feet apart and trying to fit something into a small hole. But case in point, if a small fighter can fly behind a large jet and pull that off, then airliners would have nooooooooooooooo problem doing it while flying a half mile apart.

And I would LOVE to be on that trial run.

[THBatMan8]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 09:11 PM, said:

They're big, flying pieces of metal with a person at the controls.

That pretty much describes every aircraft out there. Even the F-35 is nothing but a pile of metal.

[Prancer]

THBatMan8, on Aug 25 2010, 08:19 PM, said:

That pretty much describes every aircraft out there. Even the F-35 is nothing but a pile of metal.

Thank you Captain Obvious?

I still don't see on what logic you think this is going to start making planes drop out of the sky...there is no, none, zero, zilch incidents of a plane flying in formation and just suddenly falling like a rock from the lead plane's wake. Do you really think the commercial pilots you idolize are that inept?

"Duuuuh...one might lose it's navigation and cause a collision..."

That's why you watch the lead plane you are formed with and veer to avoid them if something like that happens..that's formation flying 101...if there's lots of clouds in your path, you fly over or around them. Again, there is next to NO cases of planes colliding in a simple formation. (air shows and dogfights do not count.)

However, I can name you dozens of cases a plane crashes and burns on landing...

Edited by Yay4Afterburners, 25 August 2010 - 08:24 PM.

[E-Jet]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 10:11 PM, said:

Everything, and no they're not. They're big, flying pieces of metal with a person at the controls. The video I posted proved they are just as capable of formation flight.
I don't think the airliners will be flying 10-20 feet apart and trying to fit something into a small hole. But case in point, if a small fighter can fly behind a large jet and pull that off, then airliners would have nooooooooooooooo problem doing it while flying a half mile apart.

And I would LOVE to be on that trial run.

The video you posted proved that it can be done at low level, no wind , no clouds, no weather effecting the aircraft and they can see each other all the time.

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 10:23 PM, said:

Thank you Captain Obvious?

I still don't see on what logic you think this is going to start making planes drop out of the sky...there is no, none, zero, zilch incidents of a plane flying in formation and just suddenly falling like a rock from the lead plane's wake. Do you really think the commercial pilots you idolize are that inept?

"Duuuuh...one might lose it's navigation and cause a collision..."

That's why you watch the lead plane you are formed with and veer to avoid them if something like that happens..that's formation flying 101...if there's lots of clouds in your path, you fly over or around them. Again, there is next to NO cases of planes colliding in a simple formation. (air shows and dogfights do not count.)

However, I can name you dozens of cases a plane crashes and burns on landing...

How don't they count? They will disprove your point?

Quote

However, I can name you dozens of cases a plane crashes and burns on landing...

irrelevant.

Edited by Embraer, 25 August 2010 - 08:30 PM.

[Prancer]

Embraer, on Aug 25 2010, 08:28 PM, said:

The video you posted proved that it can be done at low level, no wind , no clouds, no weather effecting the aircraft and they can see each other all the time.

Which debunked the 'drop like a rock' theory. Again, as for what you mentioned..military pilots do that all the time in a whole range of aircraft, including what are basically airliners with a military designation slapped on them. What they do is noooooo different from what any other formation pilot will do.

Edited by Yay4Afterburners, 25 August 2010 - 08:31 PM.

[E-Jet]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 10:30 PM, said:

Which debunked the 'drop like a rock' theory. Again, as for what you mentioned..military pilots do that all the time in a whole range of aircraft, including what are basically airliners with a military designation slapped on them. What they do is noooooo different from what any other formation pilot will do.

Why do you keep comparing airliners to fighter jets? You don't see a 747 doing a formation break now do you.

Edited by Embraer, 25 August 2010 - 08:32 PM.

[THBatMan8]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 09:23 PM, said:

I still don't see on what logic you think this is going to start making planes drop out of the sky...there is no, none, zero, zilch incidents of a plane flying in formation and just suddenly falling like a rock from the lead plane's wake. Do you really think the commercial pilots you idolize are that inept?

What logic??? Let's see, maybe flight physics. Airplanes need lift to fly, and the same forces that increase fuel efficiency in formation flying decrease the wing's lift capabilities, so in some ways it's a oxy-moron, because now the engine needs to work harder to maintain a selected airspeed.

[Prancer]

Embraer, on Aug 25 2010, 08:32 PM, said:

Why do you keep comparing airliners to fighter jets? You don't see a 747 doing a formation break now do you.

Did you not read:

"a whole range of aircraft, including what are basically airliners with a military designation slapped on them."

KC-135s are 707s
KC-10s are DC-10s
C-32s are 757s
C-40s are 737s
VC-25s are 747s

The RAF uses Tridents, A320s, and Comets

There's military versions of the 767, 777, and A330 on the way

Quote

What logic??? Let's see, maybe flight physics. Airplanes need lift to fly, and the same forces that increase fuel efficiency in formation flying decrease the wing's lift capabilities, so in some ways it's a oxy-moron, because now the engine needs to work harder to maintain a selected airspeed.

I've provided you nearly a dozen real world examples. Let's see your source on that claim.

Edited by Yay4Afterburners, 25 August 2010 - 08:37 PM.

[E-Jet]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 10:35 PM, said:

Did you not read:

"a whole range of aircraft, including what are basically airliners with a military designation slapped on them."

KC-135s are 707s
KC-10s are DC-10s
C-32s are 757s
C-40s are 737s
VC-25s are 747s

The RAF uses Tridents, A320s, and Comets

There's military versions of the 767, 777, and A330 on the way
I've provided you nearly a dozen real world examples. Let's see your source on that claim.

Again, why are you comparing AIRLINER ( Passneger aircraft ) to fighter jets?



With your logic, all of those aircraft can do what those 2 F14s are doing? I don't think so.

[Prancer]

Embraer, on Aug 25 2010, 08:39 PM, said:

Again, why are you comparing AIRLINER ( Passneger aircraft ) to fighter jets?

With your logic, all of those aircraft can do what those 2 F14s are doing? I don't think so.

I'm not. I'm comparing the pilots, many of whom ARE fighter pilots, in doing simple formation flight, which any airplane can do.

Are you that dense or just an idiot?

By the way.

Edited by Yay4Afterburners, 25 August 2010 - 08:44 PM.

[E-Jet]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 10:41 PM, said:

I'm not. I'm comparing the pilots, many of whom ARE fighter pilots, in doing simple formation flight, which any airplane can do.

Are you that dense or just an idiot?

And for the same of it:

image

Judging by what you say, your the idiot. Your post keep on saying that if a fighter jet can do it, then so can a airliner. So will tram car's going up 10,000 feet in formation help save electricity? Since you know, there can "technically" aircraft.

By the way, that 757 isn't doing what those 2 F14s are doing. Can you see? or are you just stupid?

Edited by Embraer, 25 August 2010 - 08:47 PM.

[THBatMan8]

Yay4Afterburners, on Aug 25 2010, 09:35 PM, said:

I've provided you nearly a dozen real world examples. Let's see your source on that claim.

Go to flight school.