156 replies to this topic

[SwitchFX]

Math, physics and science would all be useful in the airline industry.

Edited by SwitchFX, 13 August 2011 - 05:59 AM.

[Chief_Bean]

SwitchFX, on Aug 13 2011, 11:54 AM, said:

Math, physics and science would all be useful in the airline industry.

Physics is a science, and most people would say maths is too

[_NW_]

I have several friends who are flying airliners without ever stepping foot in the military or college.

Me myself, I flew Kingair's (had no desire to fly an airline) without ever stepping foot on a college campus.

Flying a plane doesn't require anything more than basic math, everything else is calculated.  The only time you have to use math by hand is when your equipment fails, and that's only short math, such as, can you make it to the airport you're diverting to because you can't continue the flight without that equipment.

The best pilots are ones who are proficient in their aircraft, are experts with the systems and the limitations of those systems in that aircraft, and who have the responsibility of not cutting corners to deviate from SOPs.  None of that has to deal with physics, calculus, or trig.

[Chief_Bean]

HarryS_Truman, on Aug 13 2011, 12:17 PM, said:

I have several friends who are flying airliners without ever stepping foot in the military or college.

Me myself, I flew Kingair's (had no desire to fly an airline) without ever stepping foot on a college campus.

Flying a plane doesn't require anything more than basic math, everything else is calculated.  The only time you have to use math by hand is when your equipment fails, and that's only short math, such as, can you make it to the airport you're diverting to because you can't continue the flight without that equipment.

The best pilots are ones who are proficient in their aircraft, are experts with the systems and the limitations of those systems in that aircraft, and who have the responsibility of not cutting corners to deviate from SOPs.  None of that has to deal with physics, calculus, or trig.

Nobody is saying you need to use the maths/physics etc. in flying the aircraft, but the skills you pick up when studying such a degree (not that calculus or trig is university level maths, ha). Also, university helps makes people more well rounded, which is desirable for all employers.

I feel like this is an impossible argument as those who haven't been to university will find it hard to understand...

[_NW_]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 05:26 AM, said:

Nobody is saying you need to use the maths/physics etc. in flying the aircraft, but the skills you pick up when studying such a degree (not that calculus or trig is university level maths, ha). Also, university helps makes people more well rounded, which is desirable for all employers.

I feel like this is an impossible argument as those who haven't been to university will find it hard to understand...

That's not the point..  the point is, you don't need a college education to fly a jetliner.  It's not about character traits or how well one can study.  Flying an airplane is not brain surgery..  that's why there's pt.141 flight schools.  You can teach a monkey to fly a plane, but if you want to be neurosurgeon, you need a lot of college..  and you have to study just as hard in flight school as you do in any other college, it's just the amount of studying is a lot less.  

Keep in mind, I've got 10 years of aviation experience in several environments, countries, and job positions from ground crew, flight crew, and flight operations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's pointless.  It's good to have something to fall back on since aviation worldwide currently is highly unstable.  What I am saying though, is college is not a requirement to fly an airliner.. it comes down to the airline and their individual requirements.

[Chief_Bean]

HarryS_Truman, on Aug 13 2011, 01:05 PM, said:

That's not the point..  the point is, you don't need a college education to fly a jetliner.  It's not about character traits or how well one can study.  Flying an airplane is not brain surgery..  that's why there's pt.141 flight schools.  You can teach a monkey to fly a plane, but if you want to be neurosurgeon, you need a lot of college..  and you have to study just as hard in flight school as you do in any other college, it's just the amount of studying is a lot less.  

Keep in mind, I've got 10 years of aviation experience in several environments, countries, and job positions from ground crew, flight crew, and flight operations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's pointless.  It's good to have something to fall back on since aviation worldwide currently is highly unstable.  What I am saying though, is college is not a requirement to fly an airliner.. it comes down to the airline and their individual requirements.

Nobody said it was a requirement, but it will give you an edge. And of course character traits are important when being an airline pilot...

[Jonay]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 01:12 PM, said:

Nobody said it was a requirement, but it will give you an edge. And of course character traits are important when being an airline pilot...

Being part of a youth or community group will give you the same skills - if not better ones.

Being in the Air Cadets its the best thing I've ever done - and now as adult staff I've got even more responsibility - which Uni or College can't give you.

[_NW_]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 06:12 AM, said:

Nobody said it was a requirement, but it will give you an edge. And of course character traits are important when being an airline pilot...

And you're in the HR department of an airline?

I invite you to ask as many pilots you can find and ask them one simple question...  who would an airline hire to fly a 737..

A CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ without any degrees or a college grad with the commercial minimums of 250 hrs total time.

[Chief_Bean]

HarryS_Truman, on Aug 13 2011, 02:08 PM, said:

And you're in the HR department of an airline?

I invite you to ask as many pilots you can find and ask them one simple question...  who would an airline hire to fly a 737..

A CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ without any degrees or a college grad with the commercial minimums of 250 hrs total time.

You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. If you have two otherwise equally qualified candidates (in terms of flying experience), but one with a degree and one without, I'd say the one with the degree would be hired any day. And no, I'm not in the HR department of an airline, but my father is in charge of personnel for one of the biggest department stores in the country so I do know what employers in general are looking for...

[davie18]

HarryS_Truman, on Aug 13 2011, 02:08 PM, said:

And you're in the HR department of an airline?

I invite you to ask as many pilots you can find and ask them one simple question...  who would an airline hire to fly a 737..

A CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ without any degrees or a college grad with the commercial minimums of 250 hrs total time.

No, but that's not what he's saying. Say you had a CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ without any degrees, or a  CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ with a degree, they'll probably go for the one with the degree...

It just gives you that edge over other people.

Meh, he replied before me anyway

Edited by davie18, 13 August 2011 - 08:13 AM.

[_NW_]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 06:12 AM, said:

Nobody said it was a requirement, but it will give you an edge. And of course character traits are important when being an airline pilot...

Look man, I rarely dispute what you say..   but you just can't seem to get over the idea that college = job.  There are thousands of companies around the world that fly jetliners.  Some of them require a degree, some do not.  The ones that do require it, yes, it will give you an edge (probably a bigger one if the degree is in aviation) but to those airlines that don't require it, they don't care.  An employer that does not require nor recommend a degree will not care if you have a degree in rocket science, and there are many companies flying jetliners that do not care about a pilot having a degree.  And character traits are developed in all stages of life, not just college..  yes it is important, but like getting a pilots license, you do not need to go to college for it.

What it boils down to is where does the person what to fly, and do they have a preference in what they fly and/or for whom.  If I want to fly for Cathay Pacific (the only airline I would love to fly for) then I do not need a degree.  They've never wanted one (last time I checked which was a few years ago), but many airlines, like Delta, Lufthansa, United, want their pilots to have a degree.  They both are airlines, they both fly jetliners, so it comes down to the person.  Can he/she relocate to another country or deal with international commuting?

[THBatMan8]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 02:27 AM, said:

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

If I'm wrong then you need to elaborate.

Edited by Richard_Nixon, 13 August 2011 - 08:50 AM.

[_NW_]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 07:12 AM, said:

You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. If you have two otherwise equally qualified candidates (in terms of flying experience), but one with a degree and one without, I'd say the one with the degree would be hired any day. And no, I'm not in the HR department of an airline, but my father is in charge of personnel for one of the biggest department stores in the country so I do know what employers in general are looking for...

I know what you're saying, but it's too much of a generalization, when in fact, you can't generalize airlines because of the diverseness of them.  Yes, I would agree, it could give him an edge, but only if the airline considers having one is beneficial.  Most major airlines in the US, Canada, and EU are like this..   but many airlines in other parts do not care.  And it still boils down to the actual testing of the candidate, as there are multipe tests, from an oral exam, a written exam, and a sim exam.  One will do better than the other, and the one that does better should be the one to get hired.  It is very rare that you will have two different people from two different backgrounds with the same ratings and hours that are equally matched in aptitude, knowledge, and proficiency.  This kinda goes back to what I said earlier..   airlines are known to wave a lack of a degree in lieu of experience.

[THBatMan8]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 07:12 AM, said:

You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. If you have two otherwise equally qualified candidates (in terms of flying experience), but one with a degree and one without, I'd say the one with the degree would be hired any day. And no, I'm not in the HR department of an airline, but my father is in charge of personnel for one of the biggest department stores in the country so I do know what employers in general are looking for...

Not true. The degree means NOTHING if it doesn't relate to your job. A certified doctor with 5k hours isn't going to fly a CRJ any better than Joe-shmo with 5k hours.

davie18, on Aug 13 2011, 07:12 AM, said:

No, but that's not what he's saying. Say you had a CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ without any degrees, or a  CRJ captain with 5,000 hrs PIC on a CRJ with a degree, they'll probably go for the one with the degree...

It just gives you that edge over other people.

Meh, he replied before me anyway

Only ones that require a degree will care. Most airliners do not care. Having a degree doesn't make you a better pilot, hense, does not make you a better candidate for the job.

Edited by Richard_Nixon, 13 August 2011 - 08:56 AM.

[HighFlyin]

Richard_Nixon, on Aug 13 2011, 12:49 AM, said:

It is a waste of money. Because knowledge is useless if you don't apply it. That degree means absolutely NOTHING if it doesn't relate to your field of work, so why companies require a degree like this is beyond me. It does not make you a better candidate for the job.

As I also stated, employers want recency of experience. If you get a masters in engineering and don't work in the field, no body is going to hire you when you look for a job 5 years later. So yes, you wasted your money.

Call me biased all you want. I'm living in reality presenting facts, not opinions.

The degree means EVERYTHING if the only reason you have a career  is because of it. Who cares if you're not punching the clock in the area of study. If you couldn't have gotten to the step you are at now without a degree, then how can you call it a waste of money?

[Chief_Bean]

HarryS_Truman, on Aug 13 2011, 02:43 PM, said:

Look man, I rarely dispute what you say..   but you just can't seem to get over the idea that college = job.

I'm not saying that degre => job, but the probability of getting a job given you have a degree is greater than the probability of getting a job without one!

Hrmm...my implication sign died.

Edited by Chief_Bean, 13 August 2011 - 09:24 AM.

[THBatMan8]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 13 2011, 08:23 AM, said:

I'm not saying that degre => job, but the probability of getting a job given you have a degree is greater than the probability of getting a job without one!

Hrmm...my implication sign died.

You're generalizing the industry.

HighFlyin, on Aug 13 2011, 08:15 AM, said:

The degree means EVERYTHING if the only reason you have a career  is because of it. Who cares if you're not punching the clock in the area of study. If you couldn't have gotten to the step you are at now without a degree, then how can you call it a waste of money?

You fail to see my point, so I will not repeat myself like a broken record until you do.

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

HarryS_Truman, on Aug 13 2011, 06:37 AM, said:

He's got a point though..   since we're on the topic of flying a jetliner..  if you go to an airline, say, United, and you look at their hiring minimums and see they require a candidate to have a college degree, but doesn't specify which type..  then you can have a degree in dog grooming and get hired..   and when are you going to groom a dog while flying a plane?  That's the point Kevin is saying..  in that aspect, it's a waste of time and money, as many companies will waiver lack of education for a lot of experience.  That 2 or 4 years it took you to get a degree, you could have had already 2 to 4 years of flight experience, which could put you around 3,000 hrs more flight time the competition.  However, if you go to college and get a degree in accounting and you get a job in accounting, then it isn't a waste of money or time.

You still need to take note that just because they say you need a degree and don't specify which type, it's up to the personnel manager to determine who gets in and who doesn't, and they may just pick the guy with the business degree over the history major.

You also need to remember that not everyone is going out for a major airline career with United or Delta. Smaller companies will have a different perspective. Maybe a corporate jet company would prefer you have a degree in hospitality because it's about caring for your customers, especially if you're going to be the co-pilot and flight attendant.

It just depends on the company, not the industry necessarily.

[THBatMan8]

Fate01_VUSAFS, on Aug 13 2011, 09:51 AM, said:

You still need to take note that just because they say you need a degree and don't specify which type, it's up to the personnel manager to determine who gets in and who doesn't, and they may just pick the guy with the business degree over the history major.

You also need to remember that not everyone is going out for a major airline career with United or Delta. Smaller companies will have a different perspective. Maybe a corporate jet company would prefer you have a degree in hospitality because it's about caring for your customers, especially if you're going to be the co-pilot and flight attendant.

It just depends on the company, not the industry necessarily.

If I could thank that post 1,000 times, I would. Well said.

[THBatMan8]

Fate01_VUSAFS, on Aug 13 2011, 09:51 AM, said:

You still need to take note that just because they say you need a degree and don't specify which type, it's up to the personnel manager to determine who gets in and who doesn't, and they may just pick the guy with the business degree over the history major.

You also need to remember that not everyone is going out for a major airline career with United or Delta. Smaller companies will have a different perspective. Maybe a corporate jet company would prefer you have a degree in hospitality because it's about caring for your customers, especially if you're going to be the co-pilot and flight attendant.

It just depends on the company, not the industry necessarily.

I also wanted to reiterate what NWilkinson stated. Having field experience is the same as a degree with companies that don't require a particular field of study. Using myself as a example, many PD's in the central florida area want a college backround. Being that they don't specify what type of degree is required, field experience is just as good; and will cancel the degree requirement (I started the hiring process at a sheriff's dept before I left Fl as I meet the minimum standards). Wisdom may come with education, but it also comes with age and exposure. If you guys still want to call me biased, then get some age and experience under your belt. So far, the only members that disagree with my statement are younger members who don't have squat for experience in any field (no offense). You don't need a degree to get ahead in life. That is a common misconception that schools brainwash you with.

And before someone derails the thread further asking how I got the experience without a degree, PD's view any kind of public service backround as field of experience. This includes driving a truck.

Edited by Richard_Nixon, 13 August 2011 - 02:33 PM.