137 replies to this topic

[THBatMan8]

Chief_Bean, on Feb 29 2012, 11:36 AM, said:

Butchered the saying a bit there

Everyone else's arsehole is wrong?

[pieterjan456]

I read in ths thread that 40k$ a year is not much? When I'll start with a masters degree in engineering I'll be happy (!) to have around €18-20,000 a year after taxes. After 5 years this has become around €20-22,000. When I look around at other countries and what people with the same degree as me earn it hurts, but then again, someone has to pay for the welfare state

[Chief_Bean]

pieterjan456, on Feb 29 2012, 07:10 PM, said:

I read in ths thread that 40k$ a year is not much? When I'll start with a masters degree in engineering I'll be happy (!) to have around €18-20,000 a year after taxes. After 5 years this has become around €20-22,000. When I look around at other countries and what people with the same degree as me earn it hurts, but then again, someone has to pay for the welfare state

I assumed we were talking about $40k before tax...

[pieterjan456]

oh ok, makes a big difference then ;-)

[89-LX]

pieterjan456, on Feb 29 2012, 02:26 PM, said:

oh ok, makes a big difference then ;-)

Not too much, because we (pilots) can have pretty big writeoff's for a lower tax bracket, in addition to the $40k figure is flying MINIMUM guarantee, and no per diem.

Lets take for example the base minimum guarantee is 75 hours at $40 an hr. Thats $36,000 a year. Now lets assume you do 10 hours extra a month above guarantee, thats an additional $4,800 for a base salary of $40,800. Lets assume a 20% tax bracket due to writeoffs, and thats a base salary of $32,640 after taxes.

Average time away from base will be approximately 200 hours a month, at $1.65 per hour for an additional $3,960 tax free. So n ow you're back at $36,xxx after taxes and everything else figured in.

[Visionary]

40K is a decent salary, sure it is not great, but I think compared to most other people it is not bad! I think as single person you definitely live a nice life and save money on that salary. Starting salary for pilots is generally terrible, but 40K is not bad! My friends make double that and complain at the end of the month they have no money, I guess you learn spend as much as you earn, well, some people do!

[89-LX]

Visionary, on Mar 1 2012, 03:14 AM, said:

40K is a decent salary, sure it is not great, but I think compared to most other people it is not bad! I think as single person you definitely live a nice life and save money on that salary. Starting salary for pilots is generally terrible, but 40K is not bad! My friends make double that and complain at the end of the month they have no money, I guess you learn spend as much as you earn, well, some people do!

Problem is $40k is crap money for what it takes to become a pilot.

[HighFlyin]

40K a year to start is good, 40K a year for life is bad.

89-LX, on Mar 1 2012, 09:31 AM, said:

Problem is $40k is crap money for what it takes to become a pilot.

Come to Canada boss. We'll take of you. Canada hasn't been deregulated like down in the States. First year pay for an F/O at WestJet (Canada's fastest growing airline) is 51K a year. Oh and we have universal health care .

Edited by HighFlyin, 01 March 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[_NW_]

I'm not going to get too far into this..   flying as a career, especially when you're fresh out of flight school..  isn't a quick or easy road.  You have to stick with it, and be prepared to make several sacrifices.  If you're single, then flying in another country would be the easiest bet; you get paid better, usually fly more, and it gives you experience many other pilots from your home country can't say they have..   but if you have a wife, or a family, or you don't want to leave your home country, then it gets more difficult.  It's not hard to survive off the starting wages of a first or second year first officer with a regional, but you have to stick with it, and you still have a student loan to pay off.  You might have to live off rice and ramen noodles, eventually, you'll start getting pay raises, better hours, and more income.  Aviation is slowly growing again after a 10 year slump, but if you truly want to have a career as a pilot, then you have to stick with it, no matter how good or bad it gets.

[89-LX]

NWilkinson, on Mar 1 2012, 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not going to get too far into this..   flying as a career, especially when you're fresh out of flight school..  isn't a quick or easy road.  You have to stick with it, and be prepared to make several sacrifices.  If you're single, then flying in another country would be the easiest bet; you get paid better, usually fly more, and it gives you experience many other pilots from your home country can't say they have..   but if you have a wife, or a family, or you don't want to leave your home country, then it gets more difficult.  It's not hard to survive off the starting wages of a first or second year first officer with a regional, but you have to stick with it, and you still have a student loan to pay off.  You might have to live off rice and ramen noodles, eventually, you'll start getting pay raises, better hours, and more income.  Aviation is slowly growing again after a 10 year slump, but if you truly want to have a career as a pilot, then you have to stick with it, no matter how good or bad it gets.

That is true. What I do is defer my student loans, and just pay part if the interest to keep the balance down until I have higher pay. My gf and I will have a combined income of around $65,000-$70,000, and she is more than willing to help me out.

As far as aviation growing again, its still an unstable area at the moment. We have Pinnacle who is about to file for chaper 11, we have AA who did file, American Eagle, TSA, and a few others furloughing but others still hiring. We have the impending age 65 looming, that will take out 29,000+ pilots over the next 15 years when all the regionals only have a combined 18,000 pilots or so. I think for the foreseeable future, we will have a stagnation or reduction of flying here in the United States. So for every 2 retirements, you will have 1 new hire.

We also have H.R. 5900 looming over head with the new ATP rules that require an ATP to be SIC of a part 121 airliner. This will be a barrier to entry. We also have the new rest rules, that will require some airlines to have to hire more pilots to cover the reduction of block hours/duty hours one can do in a given day. We have less and less new commercial pilots every year due to financial hardship, lack of jobs, and lack of QOL/pay/benefits.

With this, something has to give. Something has to entice QUALIFIED people back into aviation. The companies will have no problem filling seats for people to fly shiny jets, but its the lack of qualified individuals who possess the skills needed too safely operate an transport category aircraft. I think, as stated above, the major/legacy airline flying hiring will pick up at a slow rate and their wages will go up slightly. I think you will see the biggest pay increases with the regional airlines that will have trouble finding qualified pilots.

But then again, this is aviation. We have cabotage, oil prices, another 9/11, MCPL, etc to worry about.

[pieterjan456]

Visionary, on Mar 1 2012, 04:14 AM, said:

40K is a decent salary, sure it is not great, but I think compared to most other people it is not bad! I think as single person you definitely live a nice life and save money on that salary. Starting salary for pilots is generally terrible, but 40K is not bad! My friends make double that and complain at the end of the month they have no money, I guess you learn spend as much as you earn, well, some people do!

lol what do you friends do if I may ask? The max I can get over here with my degree is around 42k€ after taxes. And that's when I'm old and grey
A CPL (fATPL) is around 85k € here, and if you're lucky enough (I have friends who are already looking for one for 3 years) to find a job you pay the loan back in +-10 years.

[SargeJr3]

HighFlyin, on Mar 1 2012, 07:43 AM, said:

40K a year to start is good, 40K a year for life is bad.
Come to Canada boss. We'll take of you. Canada hasn't been deregulated like down in the States. First year pay for an F/O at WestJet (Canada's fastest growing airline) is 51K a year. Oh and we have universal health care .

Unfortunately, Westjet isnt' an airline where you will get a job out of graduation.  Look 5-6 years down the road, closer to 10.  Most WJ new hires have over 5000h TT, have been a captain on something with a (or multiple) turbines, and almost all have internal recommendations.  It's not an airline to walk into.

[- M.Parker -]

89-LX, on Mar 1 2012, 09:46 AM, said:

We also have H.R. 5900 looming over head with the new ATP rules that require an ATP to be SIC of a part 121 airliner. This will be a barrier to entry.

I read that if you graduate from an accredited collegiate aviation program you will only need somewhere in the area of 1000 hours total time to fly SIC of a 121 aircraft. And that if your previous flight time is military time you only need 700 hours. Have you heard anything about that?

[_NW_]

- M.Parker -, on Mar 1 2012, 03:26 PM, said:

I read that if you graduate from an accredited collegiate aviation program you will only need somewhere in the area of 1000 hours total time to fly SIC of a 121 aircraft. And that if your previous flight time is military time you only need 700 hours. Have you heard anything about that?

If they separate the two, that's the most retarded thing..   then again, it is the government we're talking about.

They already bumped up the hour requirements for ATP from 1200 to 1500...   and there is no difference between my 1200ttl and some college grad's 1000ttl except how we got them.

I think in the end, it will still come down to the airline to determine if they want to hire you.  I would like to think that if I have 1500 hours, more than half of which where in a 135 environment, that I would be favored over the guy with the same time, but all CFI time.  The difference is really responsibility...    since 135 is chartered, where the CFI has only 91 experience.

[- M.Parker -]

NWilkinson, on Mar 1 2012, 05:12 PM, said:

If they separate the two, that's the most retarded thing..   then again, it is the government we're talking about.

They already bumped up the hour requirements for ATP from 1200 to 1500...   and there is no difference between my 1200ttl and some college grad's 1000ttl except how we got them.

I think in the end, it will still come down to the airline to determine if they want to hire you.  I would like to think that if I have 1500 hours, more than half of which where in a 135 environment, that I would be favored over the guy with the same time, but all CFI time.  The difference is really responsibility...    since 135 is chartered, where the CFI has only 91 experience.

Exactly. I completely agree with that. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[THBatMan8]

Chief_Bean, on Feb 29 2012, 12:13 PM, said:

I assumed we were talking about $40k before tax...

Before tax or after tax doesn't matter. 40k a year is a liveable salary. It's your fault if you cant manage money and want to buy frivolous things. With that mindset, 80k a year isn't enough and neither is 120k. You'll never be satisfied with any salary.

If you cant afford the rent, move. If you can't afford the car, get something you can afford. It's simple logic that you don't seem to understand. All you need to survive is a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food on your plate. Just because you aren't willing to live on that salary doesn't automatically mean it can't be done.

Edited by THBatMan8, 02 March 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[pieterjan456]

Very true, I see people from my age buying a car instead of taking a (motor)bike/metro/train and then they start complaining about how expensive stuff is. There are alternatives which save you money. If you can't live from 40k $ you'd have a serious problem over here  

[HighFlyin]

THBatMan8, on Mar 2 2012, 11:16 AM, said:

Before tax or after tax doesn't matter. 40k a year is a liveable salary. It's your fault if you cant manage money and want to buy frivolous things. With that mindset, 80k a year isn't enough and neither is 120k. You'll never be satisfied with any salary.

If you cant afford the rent, move. If you can't afford the car, get something you can afford. It's simple logic that you don't seem to understand. All you need to survive is a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food on your plate. Just because you aren't willing to live on that salary doesn't automatically mean it can't be done.

It depends on what expenses you have in life. 40K a year for example for a single parent raising two kids is on the poverty line.

Like people said, we're not saying you couldn't live off 40K a year; it just limits what you can and can't do. I think we can all agree that you spend relative to what you get, but obviously the less you make, the less luxury you can afford. Just because you CAN find apartments within your budget, doesn't mean you'll be happy living there.

THBatMan8, on Mar 2 2012, 11:16 AM, said:

All you need to survive is a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food on your plate. Just because you aren't willing to live on that salary doesn't automatically mean it can't be done.

Yes but we're a materialistic society and that's a fact. Based on the above only, you're saying it's possible even to live on 10K a year, just lower your standards.



Personally though, I think this conversation is pointless since 40K has a varying purchase power depending on where you are in the world. Obviously since the US is in the can, 40K will buy you much more things than it would in Canada for example.

Edited by HighFlyin, 02 March 2012 - 01:09 PM.