130 replies to this topic

[Prancer]

Quote

but there is no airforce base in NYC, there was one but its closed down (thats from what i have heard).

Buddy, you're not just limited to NYC. There are Air Force Bases and Naval Air Stations all over New England, and you'd have plenty of fuel to reach them




This is where you'd wanna land, people. This is a cargo jet base, so the runway is pretty long. As I said, forget JFK

Other possiblities:
-Langley AFB
-Andrews AFB
-NAS Pax River
-Selfridge ANG Base
-NAS Oceana

[shoumik]

Zarquen, on Feb 22 2006, 08:46 PM, said:

Quote

but there is no airforce base in NYC, there was one but its closed down (thats from what i have heard).

Buddy, you're not just limited to NYC. There are Air Force Bases and Naval Air Stations all over New England, and you'd have plenty of fuel to reach them




This is where you'd wanna land, people. This is a cargo jet base, so the runway is pretty long. As I said, forget JFK

Other possiblities:
-Langley AFB
-Andrews AFB
-NAS Pax River
-Selfridge ANG Base
-NAS Oceana

That would cause for stress and confusion to the sim pilot trying to land the 747. Remember in a time like this u don't have time to think about all the bases and locate them on the GPA and then land. I would just go for JFK. Maybe the third pilot might have some rethinks, but defenitley not the sim pilot.

Edited by shoumik, 22 February 2006 - 09:16 PM.

[Prancer]

shoumik, the US Government has no clue who this person at the controls is. They would not let you near NYC. As soon as they heard this kid was at the controls, you'd have armed fighters on your wing faster than you can blink, and they will not hesitate to fire on you if you are viewed as a threat. Trust me, you'd be told to land at an air force base, followed by armed fighters the whole way. Remember back when that Lear with the golf star depressurized and everyone went unconcious? They even discussed in the war room having a C-5 knock it off course if it even was headed to a large city, and it was followed by at least two armed F-16s until it crashed. Forget finding something on the GPA, I've read USAF intecept procedures, and a common practice is for one of the fighters to fly out front for the pilot to follow, and you'd have support over the radio, told which heading to fly, etc.

Edited by Zarquen, 22 February 2006 - 09:33 PM.

[AmericanAirFan]

Just declare an emergency and explain that you have what it takes, get the ILS information and get ATC instructions cross the localizer then intercept the glide scope from underneath and then Im on my way down but I don't know about taxiing a 747 off the runway I'm sure emergency personell would be on the scene since this would be considered an emergency in the first place.

[Prancer]

AmericanAirFan, on Feb 22 2006, 09:42 PM, said:

Just declare an emergency and explain that you have what it takes,

Ever read Tom Clancey's book 'Without Remorse'? Similar situation to what you described, except this guy turned off course at the last minute and rammed the capital.

Do you seriously think, that in a post-9/11 world, that they're going to say "I'll take you for your word'? They have no idea who you are, and you're flying towards one of the most populated cities on earth. Anyone could just say 'I have what it takes' over the radio. Trust me, they will treat it almost like a hijacking, probably even as far as have you checked out by police when you land, and most definitly they will ram the landing gear when you stop the plane to make sure you don't try anything.

Edit: and if you think they'll believe you with the 'at least the people on board will have a chance' mindset, think again. The way of thinking of the people on the ground is 400 lives is a small price to pay to save several thousand lives on the ground.

Edited by Zarquen, 22 February 2006 - 09:53 PM.

[shoumik]

AmericanAirFan, on Feb 22 2006, 09:42 PM, said:

Just declare an emergency and explain that you have what it takes, get the ILS information and get ATC instructions cross the localizer then intercept the glide scope from underneath and then Im on my way down but I don't know about taxiing a 747 off the runway I'm sure emergency personell would be on the scene since this would be considered an emergency in the first place.

In an emergancy landing, there will be ambulence, firefighters, police, FBI- lol CPA- lol.... everyone of them will be surrounding the airport. Thats what happened when the Biman Bangladesh landed with 1 or 2 landing gear. And Zarquen, no body said that a kid would be flying. Even if a kid was flying the 747 they wouldint suspect terrorist or anything- come on, would they really suspect a kid to hijack a 747. I would just declare an emergancy landing just like AmericanAirFan stated and proceed on and pray to god. And this sim pilot would definitely  have a hard time following the f-16.

Edited by shoumik, 22 February 2006 - 09:55 PM.

[Prancer]

Whoever it is, it's not the pilot. A hijacker could easily come over the radio with the 'pilots passed out, declaring an emergency' story as easily as you, but the people on the ground don't know if you are legit or not. Just look at airport security, they check little kids for weapons. You can say 'I'd just do this', but the hard cold reality is:
-You WILL be treated with extreme caution
-You WILL be intercepted by armed United States Air Force fighters
-You WILL be steered away from NYC and any other large city
-You MOST LIKELY will be told to land at a military base
-If you refuse to cooperate and continue on to JFK, you WILL be given one warning shot
-If you still refuse, you WILL be shot down.

[shoumik]

Zarquen, on Feb 22 2006, 10:02 PM, said:

Whoever it is, it's not the pilot. A hijacker could easily come over the radio with the 'pilots passed out, declaring an emergency' story as easily as you, but the people on the ground don't know if you are legit or not. Just look at airport security, they check little kids for weapons. You can say 'I'd just do this', but the hard cold reality is:
-You WILL be treated with extreme caution
-You WILL be intercepted by armed United States Air Force fighters
-You WILL be steered away from NYC and any other large city
-You MOST LIKELY will be told to land at a military base
-If you refuse to cooperate and continue on to JFK, you WILL be given one warning shot
-If you still refuse, you WILL be shot down.

That all maybe true, but what happens when the sim pilot obeys them and follows the f-16? The chances are that the sim pilot will have a diffucult time flying IN FORMATION with the f-16. Right then will the fighter pilots be convinced that this type of flying can not come from a hijecker. Reasons:

1) The hijecker would never follow the f-16, considering that the sim pilot would.
2) If the Hijecker knows that he cant continue doing his things he will most likely crash the 747.
3) what about all the begging and pleeding that would come from the crew stating that the pilot is not a hijecker.

[Prancer]

First off, following the F-16. Use the auto throttle. Keep it set at the speed the F-16 instructs you to, and the F-16 will probably keep a very shallow turn. And if you can't maintain a given speed, you can't land the jet. Speed maintaining is a very basic thing.

Now,

1.)Good, so they know you're not a hijacker if you follow the F-16. But if you're following the F-16, they're going to keep you going to whatever base you were told. How do they know you're not just partially submitting so they can let you continue to NYC after you've 'convinced' them and do whatever you had planned?
2.)That fits in with what I stated with 1.
3.)How will the people on the ground know that the crew isn't being forced to do that, or even if it's the crew at all and not some accomplicies?

These people are trained to always assume the worst, and that's just what they will do.

[Evan.]

dude you're crazy ^

a simple question was asked and you are getting all philosophical

[Prancer]

As I said in an earlier post, what you would do is directly related to what you could do.

[shoumik]

Zarquen, on Feb 22 2006, 10:33 PM, said:

First off, following the F-16. Use the auto throttle. Keep it set at the speed the F-16 instructs you to, and the F-16 will probably keep a very shallow turn. And if you can't maintain a given speed, you can't land the jet. Speed maintaining is a very basic thing.

Now,

1.)Good, so they know you're not a hijacker if you follow the F-16. But if you're following the F-16, they're going to keep you going to whatever base you were told. How do they know you're not just partially submitting so they can let you continue to NYC after you've 'convinced' them and do whatever you had planned?
2.)That fits in with what I stated with 1.
3.)How will the people on the ground know that the crew isn't being forced to do that, or even if it's the crew at all and not some accomplicies?

These people are trained to always assume the worst, and that's just what they will do.

Im refering back to my original question. I did mention that the plane was on a DECENT to JFK. By then the pilot would have already contacted ATC requesting landing and every thing else. You don't even have to tell them that the pilots have been uncon. You can just land the plane and afterwards tell them what happened. That is off course if the sim pilot is crazy and tremendously worrying about the f-16ns and what they could do.
Going back to the same situation that happened last summer. A f-15 did intercept the 737, but when the fighter pilot saw that the 2 people on the controls were trying to fly the 737 it left. Coincidence?

[Prancer]

Where was the 737?

[Prancer]

Ok, I looked it up. First off, this did not happen in the US. That makes a world of difference. The F-16s that intercepted it (there were two, and they were not F-15s) were Greek, so they had a  completely different system than the USAF. And also, the fighters did not leave the airliner until it crashed. shoumik, you need to get your stories straight.

http://www.canadianc...rticle_788.html

[F/O James]

The Best option if you were the Aircrafts Last Hope, would be to Contact ATC and Get a pilot on the radio to talk you though setting up for an autoland. Even with real world experience it would be quite easy to put a 747 into a stall or a dive, with out knowing its speeds and what not.

[shoumik]

Zarquen, on Feb 23 2006, 03:19 AM, said:

Ok, I looked it up. First off, this did not happen in the US. That makes a world of difference. The F-16s that intercepted it (there were two, and they were not F-15s) were Greek, so they had a  completely different system than the USAF. And also, the fighters did not leave the airliner until it crashed. shoumik, you need to get your stories straight.

http://www.canadianc...rticle_788.html

dude i read this article over the summer, do u really expect me to remember?
Ok the f-16ns and the f-15ns stayed untill the crash. But they didn't ask to be followed, because they didn't suspect hijacking. My point is, if u try to save almost 400+ lives u don't get treated as a down right hijecker. As soon as u contact the ATC, there will be people there guiding you through the steps and will help u land the plane.

[Prancer]

Yes, they will guide you to land the plane, but chances are it will be somewhere other than JFK.

[shoumik]

i don't think so.... they will probably let u land it on JFK after they have cleared all the runways and everything else

[Prancer]

Shoumik, trust me, they would divert you. All else aside, JFK is too congested, the area is too crowded, and it's too busy for someone who's never flown a plane trying to land a 747. For someone who no experience, the air force base is even risking it. You'd probably be better off landing in an open field or ditching in the ocean if you were given a choice.

[shoumik]

Zarquen, on Feb 23 2006, 04:59 PM, said:

Shoumik, trust me, they would divert you. All else aside, JFK is too congested, the area is too crowded, and it's too busy for someone who's never flown a plane trying to land a 747. For someone who no experience, the air force base is even risking it. You'd probably be better off landing in an open field or ditching in the ocean if you were given a choice.

well yeah, u would be better off landing it on a military base. But if u never had real world flight experience, piloting the 747 to the military base will only worsen the situation. And the sim pilot would be better off landing it at JFK. The place around JFK is all highways populated areas is far from JFK. As i said earlier they could just clear the airplanes and the runway, it was happened to many other airports when the pilot declared an emergency landing. But what ever happense lets just hope this type of a situation never occurs to anyone. I was just curious as to what peoples reactiones would be. Thats all.

Please feel free to posts some for thoughts guys

Shadman