38 replies to this topic

[Spartan]

Chief_Bean, on Jun 21 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

Some of those last shots look a bit too cling-filmy and shiny for my liking.

Some of the other ones look very natural though -- just not all of them look that realistic IMO.

I agree. The waters look a bit too shiny too

[Chief_Bean]

Spartan, on Jun 21 2008, 02:12 PM, said:

Chief_Bean, on Jun 21 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

Some of those last shots look a bit too cling-filmy and shiny for my liking.

Some of the other ones look very natural though -- just not all of them look that realistic IMO.

I agree. The waters look a bit too shiny too

The water is what I was talking about (just to clarify)

[Peter Wilding]

Chief_Bean, on Jun 21 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

Some of those last shots look a bit too cling-filmy and shiny for my liking.

Some of the other ones look very natural though -- just not all of them look that realistic IMO.

Its a very subjective thing how reflective water should be.

It's not a problem though because we have loads of new maps that vary from softer to harder plus the shaders that can increase or decreast the cling film effect as you call it. It's down to the reflection levels not optimized for the maps to work in an ideal way together. These shots are just there to show we are working on it for the next update.

Water has always been the subject of debate over the many years now I've been working on water. It is a very personal thing and the view point is dependent on what experience an individual has with real water in a flying mode.

One person says make it more reflective another says less. Another says more blue and another more grey or even black. Yes, we've even been asked to do black water for day time.

Anyway, there are dozens of new maps and unlimited settings for reflections so I'm confident you can find a look that suits.

At least we are showing a lot of different looks hey compared to some. We are cetainly not just on one level and we have far more than just one or two good looks. Yes, subjective and personal opinions matter. That's why we've given the choice.

Thanks for the comments. Even Chris and I have a very different opinion of how water should look. This is good for us because we can appreciate how subjective opinions are about water and to that end we are driven to provide a lot of choice rather than one good or best look.

[Chief_Bean]

Peter Wilding, on Jun 21 2008, 02:19 PM, said:

Chief_Bean, on Jun 21 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

Some of those last shots look a bit too cling-filmy and shiny for my liking.

Some of the other ones look very natural though -- just not all of them look that realistic IMO.

Its a very subjective thing how reflective water should be.

It's not a problem though because we have loads of new maps that vary from softer to harder plus the shaders that can increase or decreast the cling film effect as you call it. It's down to the reflection levels not optimized for the maps to work in an ideal way together. These shots are just there to show we are working on it for the next update.

Water has always been the subject of debate over the many years now I've been working on water. It is a very personal thing and the view point is dependent on what experience an individual has with real water in a flying mode.

One person says make it more reflective another says less. Another says more blue and another more grey or even black. Yes, we've even been asked to do black water for day time.

Anyway, there are dozens of new maps and unlimited settings for reflections so I'm confident you can find a look that suits.

At least we are showing a lot of different looks hey compared to some. We are cetainly not just on one level and we have far more than just one or two good looks. Yes, subjective and personal opinions matter. That's why we've given the choice.

Thanks for the comments. Even Chris and I have a very different opinion of how water should look. This is good for us because we can appreciate how subjective opinions are about water and to that end we are driven to provide a lot of choice rather than one good or best look.

Ah, well as long as it's customisable, that's fine.

And I understand what you mean about personal taste -- some people are bound to like the more dramatic look as opposed to more of a natural one.

[Peter Wilding]

Yes, fully able to select personal settings levels etc. The other thing to mention is the shaders are not yet fully optimized nor the maps.

The odd thing is, that some of the shots you like are the same maps as the bottom ones and shader.

What's interesting is it has a lot to do with time of day and position of the sun.

The crazy thing is in the real world, when flying a small airplane over water the reflection is very much stronger than any of the shots shown in some conditions. It comes down to this perception issue. You say to somebody "hey draw me some water or paint me some water" they will nearly always do it bule and without reflections on it.

I think the key here is to try in game before making firm decisions. I simple screen shot tells as many lies as it does the truth.

[LeadBalloon]

Water, esp. the sea is a funny thing - as an artist I spent five years painting almost nothing but the ocean, and I can assure everyone you see everything from black to white [daytime]. There are so many variables that change the look of the surface, and visible layers, that it's almost impossible to ever say "that is wrong". So for me the important thing is choice, choice and more choice - if I spend a day by the sea I like to come home and try and recreate the conditions I have seen, so the more tools at my disposal the better.

Can't wait to see more.

[alex330]

Yes, water reflectivity is a special thing.

If you have a look at the thread over here, you'll find a tool that takes care of reflectivity - if the different FEX presets won't satisfy you
http://www.flightsim...howtopic=147451

BTW, I like your water shots very much, Peter, keep'em coming

[Striker_jm]

Hey I tried installing the updated and got this error "Archive integrity check failed" what could cause this

[Peter Wilding]

Post this issue on our support page. I'm sure Chris will sort it out for you Stiker. BTW, The water enhancements is out next week. This update is SHD clouds. One step at a time so people can gradually come up on speed just how much new content there is. We will then add runway previews and weather simulation components.

alex330, on Jun 21 2008, 10:30 PM, said:

Yes, water reflectivity is a special thing.

If you have a look at the thread over here, you'll find a tool that takes care of reflectivity - if the different FEX presets won't satisfy you
http://www.flightsim...howtopic=147451

BTW, I like your water shots very much, Peter, keep'em coming

The FEX presets are not in this package. There is a good chance by this tiem next week we'll have some more content to include water shaders.

[.Steve]

Striker_jm, on Jun 21 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

Hey I tried installing the updated and got this error "Archive integrity check failed" what could cause this

Sounds like a corrupt installer.

Sorry but you might have to download the update again.

[Striker_jm]

.Steve, on Jun 22 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

Striker_jm, on Jun 21 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

Hey I tried installing the updated and got this error "Archive integrity check failed" what could cause this

Sounds like a corrupt installer.

Sorry but you might have to download the update again.

hey it happened the first time and downloaded it again and got the same message....will try again and see what happens

[Peter Wilding]

Striker_jm, on Jun 22 2008, 01:35 PM, said:

.Steve, on Jun 22 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

Striker_jm, on Jun 21 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

Hey I tried installing the updated and got this error "Archive integrity check failed" what could cause this

Sounds like a corrupt installer.

Sorry but you might have to download the update again.

hey it happened the first time and downloaded it again and got the same message....will try again and see what happens

Post on simforums where there is official support. Chris Norris will sort you out.

[Gizmo]

Hi Peter

Will you be mastering these in 4096x4096 also?

I remastered my own custom water normals in 4096 over the weekend and the boost in detail it gives the water is amazing no more waves that look like they could take out the titanic

Trade off is a fair bit of shimmer(not to bad with x16AF) but i found this only adds to the effect of bright sun on moving waves heres a few large 1680x1050 shots to show you guys the effect master the water normals that high can have

clicky thumbs for larger images




Cheers
Gizmo

Edited by Gizmo, 23 June 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[Peter Wilding]

Gizmo, on Jun 23 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

Hi Peter

Will you be mastering these in 4096x4096 also?

I remastered my own custom water normals in 4096 over the weekend and the boost in detail it gives the water is amazing no more waves that look like they could take out the titanic

Trade off is a fair bit of shimmer(not to bad with x16AF) but i found this only adds to the effect of bright sun on moving waves heres a few large 1680x1050 shots to show you guys the effect master the water normals that high can have

clicky thumbs for larger images




Cheers
Gizmo

Yes, we've mastered hundreds of new animation maps in 4096

I thought you would have seen that in the detail of the maps we've been posting.

Give me a call on msn p.wilding@btopenworld.com

Peter

[{PeterGriffin}]

wow, this is excellent stuff. i need to get dx10!!

[Striker_jm]

I did peter but ah started working after I posted the thread...lol.
And I have to say them clouds are ridiculously beautiful man, and that was just the 2048x2048 textures, will be using the higher textures tonight. Good job to you and your team, bloody well done

[Peter Wilding]

thanks Peter and striker,

it's always good to hear positive feedback.

I really, really appreicate it as I'm sure will Chris

[Gizmo]

Peter Wilding, on Jun 23 2008, 05:30 PM, said:

Yes, we've mastered hundreds of new animation maps in 4096

I thought you would have seen that in the detail of the maps we've been posting.

Give me a call on msn p.wilding@btopenworld.com

Peter

Hey peter Nice to hear we'll have a very LARGE! sellection of water to pick from as we all know there no magic one size fit all water for FSX i cant wait to try it out whats to come.

Sorry if my 4096 question came off the wrong way,i wasnt trying to make out that the screenshots you've posted didn't look great they really do it just that I thought you guys had done some really cleaver jiggery pokery in your new water shader code to pull of the extra detail i was seeing(the Aces default shader scales the normals way to much for my liking)as all the screen grabs you posted with overlaybars state 1024x0124 for there water rez'es

Great work on the SHD clouds btw im really loving the extra detail i think you and chris have pulled off the best looking clouds ive ever seen in a realtime rendered game/sim some times i cant belive what im seeing it looks that real!
I cant thank you enought for all your hardwork

im still playing with the included sets but im sure i'll be diving into the UI very soon to make a few sets for myself and the rest of the FEX community

Im not on MSN im afraid but i am regged over at the FEX community forums if you want to PM there(same user name Gizmo)or just PM me here

Again amazing work you've really raised the bar and set a new standard for all others to follow
you guys should really outsource this stuff to other games & dev's you know much like Speedtree do for 3d trees
id love to see clouds of this detail this in my other games!

Cheers
Gizmo

[Peter Wilding]

Gizmo, on Jun 24 2008, 12:13 AM, said:

Peter Wilding, on Jun 23 2008, 05:30 PM, said:

Yes, we've mastered hundreds of new animation maps in 4096

I thought you would have seen that in the detail of the maps we've been posting.

Give me a call on msn p.wilding@btopenworld.com

Peter

Hey peter Nice to hear we'll have a very LARGE! sellection of water to pick from as we all know there no magic one size fit all water for FSX i cant wait to try it out whats to come.

Sorry if my 4096 question came off the wrong way,i wasnt trying to make out that the screenshots you've posted didn't look great they really do it just that I thought you guys had done some really cleaver jiggery pokery in your new water shader code to pull of the extra detail i was seeing(the Aces default shader scales the normals way to much for my liking)as all the screen grabs you posted with overlaybars state 1024x0124 for there water rez'es

Great work on the SHD clouds btw im really loving the extra detail i think you and chris have pulled off the best looking clouds ive ever seen in a realtime rendered game/sim some times i cant belive what im seeing it looks that real!
I cant thank you enought for all your hardwork

im still playing with the included sets but im sure i'll be diving into the UI very soon to make a few sets for myself and the rest of the FEX community

Im not on MSN im afraid but i am regged over at the FEX community forums if you want to PM there(same user name Gizmo)or just PM me here

Again amazing work you've really raised the bar and set a new standard for all others to follow
you guys should really outsource this stuff to other games & dev's you know much like Speedtree do for 3d trees
id love to see clouds of this detail this in my other games!

Cheers
Gizmo

Thanks Gizmo,

Yes, the picture frames are not yet saying the OHF details. Yes, we've done a lot with the shader too though.

Try and hook up on voice with me on msn though as it would be good to talk and exchange some ideas. You are obviosly keen on getting water improved. So let's talk.

I also want to point out we are doing a lot of things with shaders that does a lot more than just day time water. We will be able to do just about anything you want from a glassy water look to a very clever gradient to the distance.

We applaud what FSWC is doing and are not competing with that excellent product. Our shaders will do very similar things and as far as the user is concerned there will be little to set them apart. We are certainly not trying to out do or compete with FSWC. We just want to make that clear. We have spoken to Paul Wheeler and offered to help them with any techology we advance with FEX in terms of shaders.

It's important though that FEX users can have full dynamic control and not just presets with our enhanced water which is coming soon. It's important our weather engine, which is very near BETA now, has the ability to select water acording to local and forcasted conditions. We are going to do some ground breaking ideas with the weather engine and more importantly in the context of water. We are not yet willing to telegraph what exactly we are doing right now but it's safe to say nothing is going to compete with FSWC or hurt FSWC. FSWC is a freeware product ours is payware. Our market and customers are not the same.

We have offered FSWC full support and integration to FEX in addition to our own shaders which will be included in FEX.

Edited by Peter Wilding, 23 June 2008 - 08:35 PM.