205 replies to this topic

[Jaggyroad Films]

Ainsleh, on Dec 21 2008, 07:27 PM, said:

Oh and um... Exposing yourself in public or Stabbing random people is the same as Software piracy, because it IS a crime!

Does anyone else feel like this is a school insult contest? I'm done talking to you.

Quote

Actually, you bring up a very good point. The rights to the shape of the aircraft. Honestly, not knowing much about the payware world, I wonder how many of these developers actually got the rights from the aircraft manufactures themselves to use the name and shape of the aircraft, and the airlines to use their name and colors for something that will be used to make money with.

As a collector of Diecast aircraft usually when a manufacture, like herpa is to release an aircraft, they have to get the ok from Boeing to sell a model of a Boeing Aircraft, followed by some sort of ok by the Airline to use the name, logo and livery. I know cases in which entire retailers had their Ebay Stores wiped out by Boeing's request because they sold unlicensed models.

Most but not all companies generally will contact the manufacturer of the aircraft. Military aircraft fall under different rules because they are associated with the government itself and fall under freedom of information act, etc. Two totally different sets of rules and often a LOT OF GREY area.

The business is also changing, Textron is going after licensing from addon producers who create aircraft in FS. Most Cessna guys don't generally want this however, but Textron runs the deal... so... *shrugs.*

But yes, most designers will do this, especially for marketing reasons.

[avalon]

Ainsleh, on Dec 21 2008, 07:15 PM, said:

avalon, on Dec 21 2008, 07:11 PM, said:

Ainsleh, on Dec 21 2008, 07:05 PM, said:

avalon, on Dec 21 2008, 06:59 PM, said:

I don't see anyone condoning it.

What I do see is a lot of people justifying it by way of the argument "they wouldn't have bought it anyway".

Do you realize how stupid that is?? Its like saying, "its okay if I steal this car because I wasn't gonna buy it anyway".  And DO NOT argue that a car is substantial and software is not - it is still something that work, money, time, education, effort and soul went into.  

The fact that it is "digital", not material, does not change the fundamentals - and if it does, I want a detailed explanation of HOW.

If you aren't gonna buy it, don't use it. Its just plain wrong, unethical, immoral - its theft.  PERIOD

I do have to agree about some aspect of the "Mustang" conversation in that business decisions are critical to success.  In this business, selling a niche product like the Mustang for 50 bucks, is a bit steep.  I would find it hard to argue that their problems are due to piracy problems.  I would BARELY purchase the full Overland Boeing product for that much.

But this STILL does not justify piracy.

Ehh.. No...

If you steal a car, somebody actually loses a possesion, which has monetary value.

If you a copy a car, nobody losses a possesion. It may be unethical and immoral, but its not theft, by any definition that  I know of.

Comparing piracy to actually stealing something is stupid and flawed, don't do it.

FAIL.

If you "copy" a car, you will get your sued because it too is theft.


Furthermore , ALL WORK HAS MONETARY VALUE

NEXT argument?

What?

By "copying" a car was a purely hypothetical situation. Putting patents etc.. aside.

For people like you who seem to have sub-normal intelligence, ill simplify.

Stealing a car, means somebody looses an item.
By copying software, nobody looses anything.

Therefore they are non-compatiable comparisions. See?

Ad hominem arguments have no relevance to any intelligent discussion.

Furthermore, I have a degree in philosophy from one of the best universities in the country and an IQ that is above 3/4th's of the general public.

Im NOT of "sub-normal" intelligence.

"The item" lost is virtually meaningless!! It is the WORK that went into it, least of all the item itself.  THINK about it.  The mining of resources, the development of the material, the design etc etc.  - resulting in a tangible item - but equal to intellectual property!!  I recognize the existence of a "substance" in the automobile, but logically speaking, it is the WORK, the effort, the money used in producing the object that constitutes 90 percent of the value.

Intellectual property is just as real - "AN ITEM". If it isn't, then explain.

[Jaggyroad Films]

Nabeel., on Dec 21 2008, 07:31 PM, said:

I'm entitled to sell my knockoff. There is no law that says I can't make a knockoff. If it's not exactly the same, I can design my lamp to be just like yours, with a few differences, and you can't do a thing about it. It's the nature of the market.

However, that's not what this discussion is about.

I could sue you.

And yes, this is off topic.

People who pirate are being gone after daily. Those guys at FS2004.info for example are going to have some nice surprises in store for them in the future. Listing court cases in civil court for such acts would take up hundreds of pages. Agencies exist simply to squash this type of behavior. Companies are pushing further and further to destroy those that distribute it.

The goal, because of the mass quantities who do this, is to go after those who distribute it rather than those who download it. This is why Napster got their pee pee's smacked.

[Nabeel.]

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:12 PM, said:

The Mustang reference was only used as an example of how products do not sell as well as some might think. If somehow the price of the product, features, etc determine what gets pirated, you are also sorely mistaken. There are plenty of pieces of software being pirated by the hundreds that only cost a few bucks. Using a price point, a particular marketing scheme or anything as a means to why people pirate software is just hogwash. People pirate it because they can. That is why companies go through such extreme measures to protect their software.

Do you think companies would be spending as much money as they are to protect their products if piracy was "overstated?" Do you know how much research has gone into determining this? I know of servers FULL of databases and calculations of customer sales, piracy, tracked software, returns, etc. All this information is tracked.

Nabeel, I have nothing to explain to you. I WORK in the industry. If you don't take my word, or the words of many developers out there, you won't believe anything I say as valid. Half of the product copies of many products I have been associated with in one form or another are pirated. The goal isn't to stop piracy, it is to shame those that are considering it and trying to keep the honest person honest by including software that makes such acts much harder.

If what I say offends any of you, try getting into the business and creating a product... but don't come crying to me when it happens to you. Also, if what I say offends you, perhaps you need to reconsider the motivations of why what I am saying offends you.

I work in the industry as well, for many years, with a few of my own products, and my hands in some very major projects, all Fortune 500 companies. So this isn't a match based on who has the most credentials. Also, I'm not talking about the general industry, I'm talking about the flight simulator market, which is a niche market with very specific demographics, where you can't apply those same statistics about the general market.

Yes, many people pirate things because they can, but the point that you can't count each pirated download as a sale. That's the simple fact. You're gauging what it SHOULD make versus what's pirated. That's not a 1:1 ratio by any means.

If you believe that you should have sold 4000 Mustang units, then you're mistaken. That number that you sold is about correct. The rest pirated, are because they were not going to buy it in the first place, as you said, they do it because they can. It's not 1:1.

Again, my fountain drink analogy stands.

[avalon]

Ainsleh, on Dec 21 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

Ainsleh, on Dec 21 2008, 07:20 PM, said:

Wasn't calling you naive, was talking about avalon, sir!

He is naive because he believes software piracy is a bunch of crap? You are giving excuses to why people pirate. I think the only nativity here is coming from your corner of the ring, sir.

No he's naive, because he believes finishing software piracy will solve all our problems, save all the developers etc...
He's naive because he thinks pirating software is like breaking into someones house and stealing their items.

Thats why he's naive.

Get it right.

Did I say that "finishing software piracy will solve all our problems" ?   NO

OR  "save all the developers"  ?  NO

And it is NOT naive to believe that pirating software is tantamount to breaking into someone's house and stealing their items because their intellectual property PRODUCES THEIR LIVELIHOOD - ALL OF THEIR "ITEMS" in their house.

[Nabeel.]

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

I could sue you.

And yes, this is off topic.

People who pirate are being gone after daily. Those guys at FS2004.info for example are going to have some nice surprises in store for them in the future. Listing court cases in civil court for such acts would take up hundreds of pages. Agencies exist simply to squash this type of behavior. Companies are pushing further and further to destroy those that distribute it.

The goal, because of the mass quantities who do this, is to go after those who distribute it rather than those who download it. This is why Napster got their pee pee's smacked.

No you can't. I'm not violating your copyright or trademark, if I don't make them exactly the same. If you make a lamp, with feature X, Y, Z; I can make the same type of lamp, with the same features, with some changes. You can't sue me for that.

I agree, it does need to be stopped, but the expectation that stopping piracy will magically produce a giant boost in sales is wrong, IMO.

Edited by Nabeel., 21 December 2008 - 07:44 PM.

[Jaggyroad Films]

Nabeel., on Dec 21 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:12 PM, said:

The Mustang reference was only used as an example of how products do not sell as well as some might think. If somehow the price of the product, features, etc determine what gets pirated, you are also sorely mistaken. There are plenty of pieces of software being pirated by the hundreds that only cost a few bucks. Using a price point, a particular marketing scheme or anything as a means to why people pirate software is just hogwash. People pirate it because they can. That is why companies go through such extreme measures to protect their software.

Do you think companies would be spending as much money as they are to protect their products if piracy was "overstated?" Do you know how much research has gone into determining this? I know of servers FULL of databases and calculations of customer sales, piracy, tracked software, returns, etc. All this information is tracked.

Nabeel, I have nothing to explain to you. I WORK in the industry. If you don't take my word, or the words of many developers out there, you won't believe anything I say as valid. Half of the product copies of many products I have been associated with in one form or another are pirated. The goal isn't to stop piracy, it is to shame those that are considering it and trying to keep the honest person honest by including software that makes such acts much harder.

If what I say offends any of you, try getting into the business and creating a product... but don't come crying to me when it happens to you. Also, if what I say offends you, perhaps you need to reconsider the motivations of why what I am saying offends you.

I work in the industry as well, for many years, with a few of my own products, and my hands in some very major projects, all Fortune 500 companies. So this isn't a match based on who has the most credentials. Also, I'm not talking about the general industry, I'm talking about the flight simulator market, which is a niche market with very specific demographics, where you can't apply those same statistics about the general market.

Yes, many people pirate things because they can, but the point that you can't count each pirated download as a sale. That's the simple fact. You're gauging what it SHOULD make versus what's pirated. That's not a 1:1 ratio by any means.

If you believe that you should have sold 4000 Mustang units, then you're mistaken. That number that you sold is about correct. The rest pirated, are because they were not going to buy it in the first place, as you said, they do it because they can. It's not 1:1.

Again, my fountain drink analogy stands.

Of course it isn't 1:1. Most of the people doing this are "usually" but not always underage... and frankly, where would that money come from? I do however feel sales would improve. From a pschological standpoint, you are given people an "easy" way to get something for nothing. Those same people, with no alternatives, will most likely purchase it because they MUST have it.

This is also why many developers put in anti-piracy software in service packs and patches. It drives those pirates NUTS when we do that.

[Captain Quagmire]

This topic is getting out of hand and is starting to boil over to getting personal...can't we all just kiss and make up

[Nabeel.]

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

Of course it isn't 1:1. Most of the people doing this are "usually" but not always underage... and frankly, where would that money come from? I do however feel sales would improve. From a pschological standpoint, you are given people an "easy" way to get something for nothing. Those same people, with no alternatives, will most likely purchase it because they MUST have it.

This is also why many developers put in anti-piracy software in service packs and patches. It drives those pirates NUTS when we do that.

Well the piracy expectation is also built into the price, to compensate. Those people who "must" have it will most likely purchase it already - because it's a niche market and that's the way it goes. Most people who are pirating like you said, are kids. Kids will be kids. Those don't translate into sales. There's studies out there showing this as well.

For instance, the link I had posted, it was such a small increase in sales you could practically call it zero. And this is for music, which is a much broader "sales point" than the FS market does.

Edited by Nabeel., 21 December 2008 - 07:49 PM.

[Jaggyroad Films]

Quote

Well the piracy expectation is also built into the price, to compensate. Those people who "must" have it will most likely purchase it already - because it's a niche market and that's the way it goes. Most people who are pirating like you said, are kids. Kids will be kids. Those don't translate into sales.

Regardless, I'm willing to bet that at least one, but probably more here interacting in this conversation have done this themselves, had the money to purchase such a product, have an opinion on the subject, but pirated said software regardless.

Those of you who did so should be ashamed of yourselves.

Your example is rather interesting, but I don't think it totally holds true. Music doesn't require a certain individual motivation or intelligence like FS. Many people pirate music without knowledge of actually doing anything wrong. I suspect that many who do this to FS developers KNOW IT. Also, when your sales are in the hundreds rather than millions (your assumption of sales in this niche market are generally correct), then every penny counts.

Edited by Valkyrie321, 21 December 2008 - 07:52 PM.

[avalon]

Nabeel., on Dec 21 2008, 07:43 PM, said:

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

I could sue you.

And yes, this is off topic.

People who pirate are being gone after daily. Those guys at FS2004.info for example are going to have some nice surprises in store for them in the future. Listing court cases in civil court for such acts would take up hundreds of pages. Agencies exist simply to squash this type of behavior. Companies are pushing further and further to destroy those that distribute it.

The goal, because of the mass quantities who do this, is to go after those who distribute it rather than those who download it. This is why Napster got their pee pee's smacked.

No you can't. I'm not violating your copyright or trademark, if I don't make them exactly the same. If you make a lamp, with feature X, Y, Z; I can make the same type of lamp, with the same features, with some changes. You can't sue me for that.

I agree, it does need to be stopped, but the expectation that stopping piracy will magically produce a giant boost in sales is wrong, IMO.

I did not say that it would result in a "giant boost in sales".

What I DID imply, is that this sort of contributes to the messed up situation in which we are living.  How quantifiable is this?  I am not going down that road.

What I AM championing is the cessation of YOUR involvement in piracy (if you are personally involved) and hopefully spreading a virus of ETHICS that penetrates to the heart of the matter.

The heart of the matter?

(small or large) THIS AFFECTS INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE NEGATIVELY.

Do you wish to live with that - OR - passively ignore it on account of some extremely flawed and utterly refutable justification?

It is idiocy.

Captain Quagmire, on Dec 21 2008, 07:46 PM, said:

This topic is getting out of hand and is starting to boil over to getting personal...can't we all just kiss and make up

I agree.  Personal attacks are indicative of insecurity and/or inability to defend a stance.

This isn't about MY or YOUR stance either.

It is about TRUTH.

And if I am wrong, show me.  I can humbly and intelligently accept because it isnt about ME.

Or YOU.

Its about TRUTH.

[Jaggyroad Films]

Unfortunately, and I deeply believe this, if the availability of such pirated software becomes more commonplace for the average person, the existence of many of the trusted companies in the FS world could be in jeopardy leaving addons to only be developed by the larger corporations who can sustain the hit. The inherent misjudgments of humans are well known. Human personality as a whole cannot be trusted... one of the reasons why socialism has always failed.

[Nabeel.]

avalon, on Dec 21 2008, 07:52 PM, said:

I did not say that it would result in a "giant boost in sales".

What I DID imply, is that this sort of contributes to the messed up situation in which we are living.  How quantifiable is this?  I am not going down that road.

What I AM championing is the cessation of YOUR involvement in piracy (if you are personally involved) and hopefully spreading a virus of ETHICS that penetrates to the heart of the matter.

The heart of the matter?

(small or large) THIS AFFECTS INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE NEGATIVELY.

Do you wish to live with that - OR - passively ignore it on account of some extremely flawed and utterly refutable justification?

It is idiocy.

Again, I was not justifying. I was merely pointing out that piracy is not the only (if even the main reason) for falling sales. There are many other factors which need to be taken into account. The PSS example stands, and that was not a result of piracy.

Like I said

Quote

It's like a fountain drink machine - you buy the cup from the vendor, and you pour yourself a glass. Someone eventually will come with their own glass and pour themselves a drink while you're not looking. If they didn't have their own glass, you can't assume that they will buy one from you. They'll just go on without it, especially when you're looking.

Quote

Your example is rather interesting, but I don't think it totally holds true. Music doesn't require a certain individual motivation or intelligence like FS. Many people pirate music without knowledge of actually doing anything wrong. I suspect that many who do this to FS developers KNOW IT. Also, when your sales are in the hundreds rather than millions (your assumption of sales in this niche market are generally correct), then every penny counts.

Yes, but my point was that in that situation, with that numbered volume, cutting out piracy did little to boost sales; so now in a much smaller market, it still would not make a difference overall, sadly.

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:57 PM, said:

Unfortunately, and I deeply believe this, if the availability of such pirated software becomes more commonplace for the average person, the existence of many of the trusted companies in the FS world could be in jeopardy leaving addons to only be developed by the larger corporations who can sustain the hit. The inherent misjudgments of humans are well known. Human personality as a whole cannot be trusted... one of the reasons why socialism has always failed.

Agreed.

Edited by Nabeel., 21 December 2008 - 08:05 PM.

[avalon]

Nabeel., on Dec 21 2008, 07:47 PM, said:

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

Of course it isn't 1:1. Most of the people doing this are "usually" but not always underage... and frankly, where would that money come from? I do however feel sales would improve. From a pschological standpoint, you are given people an "easy" way to get something for nothing. Those same people, with no alternatives, will most likely purchase it because they MUST have it.

This is also why many developers put in anti-piracy software in service packs and patches. It drives those pirates NUTS when we do that.

Well the piracy expectation is also built into the price, to compensate. Those people who "must" have it will most likely purchase it already - because it's a niche market and that's the way it goes. Most people who are pirating like you said, are kids. Kids will be kids. Those don't translate into sales. There's studies out there showing this as well.

For instance, the link I had posted, it was such a small increase in sales you could practically call it zero. And this is for music, which is a much broader "sales point" than the FS market does.

This topic keeps getting diverted!!

It is about ethics.

It is about intellectual property - which is in no way, rationally distinguishable from material property.

If you think so, BRING IT. I'm open and listening.  

If you want a piece of software that produces certain outcomes -

THEN SPEND THE YEARS, INVEST THE MONEY IN EDUCATION, AND THEN PRODUCE what it takes to get there.

And THEN come at me again with your argument about intellectual vs. material property.

[Buziel-411_RED]

Congratulations! You guys have posted an entire two, solid pages of flame war in a little over than an hour!

[Nabeel.]

Another issue to me is that prices are also just getting ridiculous. Compare it to "flying for real" all you want, I'm not flying for real... heh. That's also a point which needs to be looked at for low sales.

[avalon]

Rudolph-411, on Dec 21 2008, 08:15 PM, said:

Congratulations! You guys have posted an entire two, solid pages of flame war in a little over than an hour!

lol!!

Merry Christmas to all - whether I agree with you or not!

Edited by avalon, 21 December 2008 - 08:19 PM.

[Jaggyroad Films]

I think the sales point is justified. The Cessna Mustang is a great example.

A year and a quarter of development, a G1000 that works more or less like the real thing and was built from the ground up. There isn't a place in the world where you could get that type of development without spending thousands to purchase. These are getting very close to the real thing, and with this particular plane, it WILL eventually be used by Cessna.

Of course, it will bring lower sales too. It is what it is. Developers have to make a conscious decision what they want to build based upon development time and sales.

There are some however that produce crap and charge a lot of money....

[Independence76]

flyhalf, on Dec 21 2008, 03:57 PM, said:

The people who do this are simply losers who think the world owes them a living.

Case in point: They don't seem to understand that due to their actions, people like the great Gary Summons have recently mentioned that he may have to scale back/close down.

These losers just don't get it.

Exactly. Remember that Boeing video you did with the song "Empires" by Chicane? The album it was supposed to be on (Easy To Assemble) was canceled due to piracy from many sites. He's my favorite electronic artist, and it pisses me off he had to do such a thing because of the pirates.

Edited by Independence76, 21 December 2008 - 08:25 PM.

[Nabeel.]

Valkyrie321, on Dec 21 2008, 08:20 PM, said:

I think the sales point is justified. The Cessna Mustang is a great example.

A year and a quarter of development, a G1000 that works more or less like the real thing and was built from the ground up. There isn't a place in the world where you could get that type of development without spending thousands to purchase. These are getting very close to the real thing, and with this particular plane, it WILL eventually be used by Cessna.

Of course, it will bring lower sales too. It is what it is. Developers have to make a conscious decision what they want to build based upon development time and sales.

There are some however that produce crap and charge a lot of money....

Yep. While it looks impressive, it's not something I would fly. It's a niche market within the entire FS niche. But if that's what it's worth, then that's the price I guess. Just too much for me (and others), so to blame it solely on piracy ain't the full picture.

Quote

The people who do this are simply losers who think the world owes them a living.

Case in point: They don't seem to understand that due to their actions, people like the great Gary Summons have recently mentioned that he may have to scale back/close down.

These losers just don't get it.

Don't worry. What goes around comes around, especially when they hit the real world.