73 replies to this topic

[Gunfighter]

How long before people start following BA s example and start fronting the costs and assisting to get more people in the air?

http://www.bafuturepilot.com/

[Jambone]

They've already pushed the first set through to Step 4 of the Interview process. Meant to run for 5 years, although the intake of BMI pilots could prevent that. Looks brilliant though, 80 pilots per year through the scheme apparently.

[HighFlyin]

Gunfighter, on Nov 15 2011, 01:18 AM, said:

How long before people start following BA s example and start fronting the costs and assisting to get more people in the air?

http://www.bafuturepilot.com/

You're about eight months behind.

[LA_PHX]

HighFlyin, on Nov 15 2011, 04:39 AM, said:

You're about eight months behind.

I never heard about it so I'm glad he posted, regardless of when this program started.

Anyway, something tells me we wouldn't see this in the U.S.  I just don't think the mainline carriers are willing to spend money on training pilots when so many young pilots are willing to spend the money themselves and then go the regional airlines.  With there being so many pilots looking for jobs within the airlines, they just don't have any need for this time of program.

[Mumbles]

Yeah pretty old news.

Add Cathay, Aer Lingus, Lufthansa, Air China (I think), Etihad, Singapore, SpiceJet, and Qantas to the list. They have this type of thing going on in the Caribbean as well except it's the Government fronting the bill sending students to Florida. A friend of mine has a bunch of them in a few of his classes.

Only a matter of time before this is in the US, but it won't be majors it'll probably be regional's. They have the Mesa Pilot program except Mesa doesn't front the cost, it's just a training thing with ASU (that costs more than it's worth).

Cool opportunity, except it might draw in a bunch of looser's that have no real passion for aviation and only want the $100k+ paycheck.

[LA_PHX]

Mumbles, on Nov 15 2011, 01:57 PM, said:

They have the Mesa Pilot program except Mesa doesn't front the cost, it's just a training thing with ASU (that costs more than it's worth).

Back when I received a tour of the program, the agreement for interviews wasn't actually in place because Mesa wasn't hiring at all.  The only thing that program guaranteed, when Mesa was hiring, was an interview.  It didn't actually guarantee any sort of job at the completion of the program.

Also, the estimated flight costs are slightly on the higher end it seems (obviously that depends on what you are comparing it with) and, while they have some nice sims, when I visited a couple of years ago, I wasn't too impressed (but I suppose spending a week at ERAU will do that to you with the amount of high-end equipment they have).

[Mumbles]

LA_PHX, on Nov 15 2011, 02:12 PM, said:

Back when I received a tour of the program, the agreement for interviews wasn't actually in place because Mesa wasn't hiring at all.  The only thing that program guaranteed, when Mesa was hiring, was an interview.  It didn't actually guarantee any sort of job at the completion of the program.

Also, the estimated flight costs are slightly on the higher end it seems (obviously that depends on what you are comparing it with) and, while they have some nice sims, when I visited a couple of years ago, I wasn't too impressed (but I suppose spending a week at ERAU will do that to you with the amount of high-end equipment they have).

Yeah it isn't worth it at all. I was going to do it but after looking at it and out of state tuition I came to the conclusion that I was going to spend 150k+ and walk away with barely anything. I could do a lot more with that kind of money.

[Mohammad]

Kuwait Airways always had this program. They've had it since the 1990's. They send students abroad as part of a scholarship program. When the students return, they're immediately accepted into Kuwait Airways.

Some GCC airliners are beginning to do the same. Back then someone had to go and get the license himself, then apply. But these days countries like Bahrain, Saudi, Emirates and Qatar have all followed Kuwait's method. Flagship carriers are having their own pilots program. It's less risky and guarantees you get the job, instead of before where you had to get the license yourself and not know if the places you applied to would accept you.

[Flying_Pie]

I don't see it happening in the U.S. to be honest. The job market for pilots is just too saturated, so airlines don't have a need to invest in so much flight training when there are already so many individuals who meet the qualifications.

[Mumbles]

Flying_Pie, on Nov 15 2011, 03:58 PM, said:

I don't see it happening in the U.S. to be honest. The job market for pilots is just too saturated, so airlines don't have a need to invest in so much flight training when there are already so many individuals who meet the qualifications.

You know anything about the pilot shortage? A lot of people are going to jump ship from regional's to major carriers the second they have the chance. American has 3,330 mandatory retirements over the next ten years and the rest of the legacy carriers can match or pass that. That's 3,330 open jobs over the next ten years on top of whatever they decide to hire on top of that to meet demand. The price it cost to learn to fly and build enough hours is high enough as it is, now with congress making the 1500 hours rule it's going to turn off more people based on cost alone. A high demand and an shortage is a legitimate reason to start up a program like this.

Maybe it won't happen and the market suffers, only time will tell I guess.

RPOghF6yMgw

Edited by Mumbles, 15 November 2011 - 07:41 PM.

[THBatMan8]

Mumbles, on Nov 15 2011, 05:38 PM, said:

You know anything about the pilot shortage? A lot of people are going to jump ship from regional's to major carriers the second they have the chance. American has 3,330 mandatory retirements over the next ten years and the rest of the legacy carriers can match or pass that. That's 3,330 open jobs over the next ten years on top of whatever they decide to hire on top of that to meet demand. The price it cost to learn to fly and build enough hours is high enough as it is, now with congress making the 1500 hours rule it's going to turn off more people based on cost alone. A high demand and an shortage is a legitimate reason to start up a program like this.

Maybe it won't happen and the market suffers, only time will tell I guess.

RPOghF6yMgw

Just because pilots are going to jump to the mainstream carriers doesn't mean the regionals will have a shortage. The trucking industry is similar in this aspect. A driver quits driving for a mainstream carrier and someone else will step into the drivers seat willing to drive for half of what the previous driver made.

[Gunfighter]

Gentlemen, lets face a few facts here-

The baby boomer pilots are just now starting to retire en masse due to the FAA s policy regarding a mandatory retirement age from mainline carriers at the age of 65. 20% of all continental US flights are being cancelled not due to maintenance, or shortage of aircraft, but lack of pilots. As someone said before, the amount of money and hours requirement is making it way to difficult to get anywhere unless A, the military does your training and you can convert, or B, you can somehow be fortunate enough to get a loan or win the lottery and go to flight school. Either or, its not an easy path.

When these carriers realize that its important to start fronting the costs of flight training, then your pilot boom will ensue and the aviation industry will be back on its feet. The amount of money it costs to operate per flight cancelled is more than enough Im sure to front the cost of a pilot well through his Commercial, which for some airlines is all you need. (don't quote me on this, I think American Eagle is the only one taking people with very low hours and a Commercial).

[Mumbles]

Gunfighter, on Nov 15 2011, 08:00 PM, said:

Gentlemen, lets face a few facts here-

The baby boomer pilots are just now starting to retire en masse due to the FAA s policy regarding a mandatory retirement age from mainline carriers at the age of 65. 20% of all continental US flights are being cancelled not due to maintenance, or shortage of aircraft, but lack of pilots. As someone said before, the amount of money and hours requirement is making it way to difficult to get anywhere unless A, the military does your training and you can convert, or B, you can somehow be fortunate enough to get a loan or win the lottery and go to flight school. Either or, its not an easy path.

When these carriers realize that its important to start fronting the costs of flight training, then your pilot boom will ensue and the aviation industry will be back on its feet. The amount of money it costs to operate per flight cancelled is more than enough Im sure to front the cost of a pilot well through his Commercial, which for some airlines is all you need. (don't quote me on this, I think American Eagle is the only one taking people with very low hours and a Commercial).

Pretty much spot on. American Eagle is taking people at 500TT 50ME, if you have 800TT 100ME (the old requirements at AE) you don't have to take some regional standards course. That will change once the 1500 hour rule goes into effect.

@Richard_Nixon - You can't compare trucking to aviation (you do it a lot), I can go get a CDL and drive a truck around no problem. It's a tad bit harder to get all the ratings and hours I need just to fly a fricken beech, let alone a 737 or bigger. There is somebody to fill a position in trucking because it isn't hard to get into the industry. Aviation is an entire different ball game.

[THBatMan8]

Mumbles, on Nov 15 2011, 09:53 PM, said:

@Richard_Nixon - You can't compare trucking to aviation (you do it a lot), I can go get a CDL and drive a truck around no problem. It's a tad bit harder to get all the ratings and hours I need just to fly a fricken beech, let alone a 737 or bigger. There is somebody to fill a position in trucking because it isn't hard to get into the industry. Aviation is an entire different ball game.

I do it alot because there's alot to compare between the two. Take it from someone that understands both industries. Aviation is not a hard industry to get into, and it is not a different ball game. Anyone and their mother can get a CPL. When you get into higher type ratings, airliners pay for them.

And if you think driving a truck is easy, then:

Anyhow you completely missed my point. My point was that there will never be a pilot shortage, which there won't. Pilots are like drivers. Willing to fly/drive for peanuts. When someone leaves a regional to fly for a mainstream carrier, there are 10+ more pilots waiting to fill that seat. If regionals don't need to pay millions for cadet programs, why would they?

Edited by Richard_Nixon, 16 November 2011 - 12:20 AM.

[THBatMan8]

I also wanted to point out that people have been saying this stuff for years. It never has happened and it never will. Welcome to deregulation. The US department of labor does not view flying a aircraft a 'profession'. Therefore, government funding does not exist for training. It isn't cost effective enough for regionals to start cadet programs when you only need 1000ish hours to sit in the 2nd seat (at the better paying ones).

If it was cost effective, don't you guys think regionals would have done something like this a loooooooong time ago?

Edited by Richard_Nixon, 16 November 2011 - 12:40 AM.

[LA_PHX]

Gunfighter, on Nov 15 2011, 09:00 PM, said:

20% of all continental US flights are being cancelled not due to maintenance, or shortage of aircraft, but lack of pilots.

First off, less than 20% of the flights operated every year are cancelled so that is already wrong.  Do you mean 20% of the cancellations are due to a lack of a crew?  There is a big difference there.

And if that is what you mean, source?  I just find it hard to believe that the airlines would knowingly operate that way when the easy fix is to institute a small hiring class for pilots.

Edited by LA_PHX, 16 November 2011 - 12:58 AM.

[LA_PHX]

Richard_Nixon, on Nov 15 2011, 10:34 PM, said:

I also wanted to point out that people have been saying this stuff for years.

Exactly.  I remember hearing about projected pilot shortages and ATC shortages 10 years ago.  Guess what?  The economy tanked.  Guess what didn't happen...a pilot shortage or an ATC shortage where they instituted large hiring.  Until it actually happens, I won't believe it.

[Mumbles]

Richard_Nixon, on Nov 15 2011, 09:05 PM, said:

I do it alot because there's alot to compare between the two. Take it from someone that understands both industries. Aviation is not a hard industry to get into, and it is not a different ball game. Anyone and their mother can get a CPL. When you get into higher type ratings, airliners pay for them.

And if you think driving a truck is easy, then:

Anyhow you completely missed my point. My point was that there will never be a pilot shortage, which there won't. Pilots are like drivers. Willing to fly/drive for peanuts. When someone leaves a regional to fly for a mainstream carrier, there are 10+ more pilots waiting to fill that seat. If regionals don't need to pay millions for cadet programs, why would they?

There really isn't much to compare.

You can get a CDL for  a few thousand, not really a big deal. Depending on where and how you do it you need a cool 40-60k to get a commercial and all the multi time to go with that. If you plan to go far also account for a bachelors degree. It can easily cost 75-100k just to become a professional pilot. So unless you think "anyone and their mother" has that much money just laying around I fail to see how anyone can get one. I'm struggling to get my financing squared away just to fly, if I wanted to drive a truck I could and not even blink at the cost.

You say they have been saying this, and they have, the only difference is now there is a real demand. The baby boomers have to retire, there will be a shortage. I have several people in the industry assuring me of this and I'm going to take their word for it.

[Flying_Pie]

Mumbles, on Nov 15 2011, 05:38 PM, said:

You know anything about the pilot shortage? A lot of people are going to jump ship from regional's to major carriers the second they have the chance. American has 3,330 mandatory retirements over the next ten years and the rest of the legacy carriers can match or pass that. That's 3,330 open jobs over the next ten years on top of whatever they decide to hire on top of that to meet demand. The price it cost to learn to fly and build enough hours is high enough as it is, now with congress making the 1500 hours rule it's going to turn off more people based on cost alone. A high demand and an shortage is a legitimate reason to start up a program like this.

Maybe it won't happen and the market suffers, only time will tell I guess.

Do I know anything about the pilot shortage? No, I haven't heard anything about a shortage. What I do know is that thousands of pilots have been laid off in the last few years while many new pilots have gotten into the market to find no jobs. I know demand for pilots is going to go up dramatically in a few years because I've read the same articles you have; but I don't think the demand will ever exceed the supply so much that airlines will be willing to pay for a person's entire flight school.

[LA_PHX]

EDIT: Nevermind.

Edited by LA_PHX, 16 November 2011 - 02:35 AM.