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Crandall Responds to the "Sickout" at AA


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#1 Independence76

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:12 AM

From the pilot, name not given:

Quote

Dear Mr. Crandall:

I read with great interest recent news articles quoting you regarding the ongoing conflict between labor and management at American Airlines.
The problems of the last few days are a reflection of long standing feelings of anger and frustration amongst the pilots.  While I cannot speak for all, I am certain many do not feel as though they are a valued resource to the corporation.  They have been referred to as “bricks” and “cost units” worthy only of exercises described by certain management figures as “kicking the can.”
The fact is the pilots of American are highly skilled, trained professionals directly responsible for the safe operation of over two thousand flights daily.  Their contributions merit a plan which includes them as part of a solution to what ails American.  All too often the pilots are described only in terms of being a problem or an impediment to the success of our company.
I’m interested in the future of AA.  Most specifically, I’m left to wonder if it’s a future which includes me and my colleagues as assets or instead as nameless, faceless liabilities.  Thus, I simply ask you the following:

1.)  What long term, big picture solution do you see to the challenges which face AA and the Allied Pilots Association?
2.)  How can American begin to address our network deficiencies?

Thank you in advance for your attention and interest in American Airlines.

Very Truly,
[Name withheld]


Robert L. Crandall's response:

Quote

I have your recent note, and am pleased to share my thoughts. I am going to digress into history a bit, but will return to your question regarding my recent remarks after doing so, and will try to speak, as well, to your inquiry regarding the best long term plan for the Company and all its employees.

Let’s begin by stipulating that during the years I led American my goal was very simple: I wanted American to be the best airline by every measure:  service quality, size, and profitability.  I thought then and think now that the only way to win in business is to produce a better product than the other guy for the same or a lower price.  Moreover, I thought then and continue to believe that in a service business, every employee has an important role to play in forging the chain of favorable experience that builds customer loyalty and that every employee deserves the respect of every other and of every leader.
Now let’s do a very quick dip into history.  In the early 1970’s, when I joined the company, its market share had fallen into the range of about 10% of the domestic market, and it had few if any international routes.  It was, at the time, a slowly failing domestic carrier locked in an intense struggle with its pilots about something then called – from memory – the hard 75!!

Although that dispute was eventually settled – in ways that are lost to my memory – the Company’s overall situation was more or less stable through the 1970’s.  There was little growth, and there was great frustration throughout the Company about the lack of career opportunities and the difficulty of establishing differentiation against our competitors. Then, in 1978, deregulation occurred.

When that happened, those of us responsible for the Company’s long term future decided that we needed to do something to deal with the long term lack of growth and the  increased competitive threat that new entrants and charter operators posed. We proposed something called the growth plan, which posited that if we could grow at costs equivalent to those of the new entrant carriers we could leverage the value of new planes and routes with our existing brand identity and do very well.

To make that happen, we needed the cooperation of existing employees and the unions that represented them.  After long discussions, all the unions agreed to new contracts which modified restrictive work rules and allowed hiring new employees at different pay scales (a practice, I might note, that many companies in other industries are now emulating). With new agreements in place, we bought lots of new aircraft and set out on an aggressive expansion plan that – together with lots of other creative things done during those years – eventually vaulted American into a position of clear industry leadership.
The key point is that the favorable outcome we achieved depended on a high level of cooperation and collaboration which was in turn made possible by lots of communication and consultation. It would be naïve to believe that everyone was happy about every decision and about every aspect of the way in which every dispute was resolved. But there was – for many years – a shared conviction that we were doing most of the right things and that the industry leadership we sought would be in everyone’s interest. As a consequence, we found ways to make our flights run on time, to lose fewer bags, to sustain fewer customer complaints and to make more money, which was widely shared by means of a broad based profit sharing plan.

Things began to change in the very late 80’s and early 90’s, and have not been the same since.  I retired in 1998 because new initiatives of any type – routes, aircraft, systems, or service approaches – were typically held hostage to individual contractual modifications desired by one group or another and because of increasingly vitriolic personal attacks by one or another of the unions on the property.
In the years since, the Company has been involved in constant turmoil, a large part of which can be attributed to the contractual modifications adopted after the dreadful events of September 2001, the subsequent bankruptcies of each of the Company’s major competitors, the Company’s declining competitive success and what many employees perceive to be inappropriate compensation payments to Company executives.

However one wishes to apportion responsibility for the current situation, I think there are a few truths that everyone with a stake in American’s future should take to heart:

1. The company’s labor costs have been higher than those of its competitors since the major airline bankruptcies early in the last decade.  Each of the Company’s major competitors used bankruptcy to achieve lower labor costs than those provided for in the so called consensual agreements – and used their bankruptcy experience to lower many other costs as well. The Company sought – rightly or wrongly – to rectify the cost problem without declaring bankruptcy itself, but was unable to persuade the unions to accept the changes needed to lower labor costs. Moreover, because it did not take bankruptcy action, it suffered other cost disadvantages relative to its competitors.  As a consequence, the Company lost money for many years and is now smaller and less well positioned financially than its major competitors.

If American is to succeed in the years ahead, it must pay wages and benefits, and operate using work rules, which produce labor costs equivalent to or – while American gets itself back on track  –  lower than those of its major competitors. In the long run, no successful service company can offer compensation and working conditions that are materially different than those of its competitors.

2. Over the years, and in recent months, there has been a great deal of discussion about the word “respect”. It’s an important issue, since every one of us desires and deserves respect from our colleagues and our leaders. It’s also something that requires careful definition.  When two groups have differing opinions on a subject, the disagreement implies nothing except that there are multiple views about the probable results of a particular decision. During my years at American, I was often frustrated by the fact that however courteously a negative response to a particular proposal was couched, the response was characterized as disrespectful.
The third paragraph of your letter addresses the issue of respect by observing that pilots have been referred to a “bricks” and “cost units”. While I fully agree that such characterizations are inappropriate, I hope you and your colleagues have focused on the fact that the author of those particular quotes is no longer with the Company.

Here’s the bottom line on “Respect”.  Every employee – from fleet service to chairman – deserves the respect of every other employee. Respect requires courtesy, and any employee, or any employee group that speaks ill of another renounces their own claim to either. And finally, respect implies a willingness to settle disputes within the context of the protocols of law and process that free societies from the grip of anarchy.

3. You go on to observe that “the pilots of American are highly skilled, trained professionals directly responsible for the safe operation of over two thousand flights daily.  Their contributions merit a plan which includes them as part of a solution to what ails American”.  I find nothing in that statement with which I  disagree, nor with which Tom Horton or other senior executives would disagree.  But I’m not clear about why you think the pilots do not have a major part of the plan going forward.  The pilots, as you well know, recently voted down the Company’s LBFO. That proposal, if approved, would have awarded the pilots a generous piece of equity, would have allowed the pilot group a substantial voice in the governance of the new company and did not – so far as I know – impose conditions materially different from those in effect at other major airlines. Thus, I was and remain mystified as to why the pilots – having turned down an agreement materially better than the company’s original proposals, are now angry that alternative proposals are being implemented.  Wasn’t that always the clear alternative to approval?

4. In recent days, the airline has not run well, and it seems clear that is true – in whole or in part – because pilots are expressing their unhappiness in various ways intended to reduce the systems reliability.  Such actions (1) are disrespectful of other employees, customers and management, (2) are dismissive of the protocols of dispute resolution, (3) reject any notion of accepting responsibility for the decision to turn down the LBFO and (4) imply that the pilots believe their business judgments about what is and is not competitively sustainable are superior to those of management.

In my opinion, these actions are very ill-advised.  If the pilots want respect, they must be worthy of it. Among other things, they must recognize that threats are contrary to law and protocol, must accept responsibility for their own actions and must acknowledge the rights of those with leadership responsibilities. Additionally, it seems to me, they should think very carefully about whether their actions are consistent with the long term interests of the community of which they are a part  – that is, the Company – and the long term well- being of themselves and their families.

Acting in ways which will weaken American in today’s circumstances is harmful to everyone with an interest in the Company’s long term health, which certainly includes American’s pilots.

5. Now let’s turn to the future.  American, although weakened, remains a substantial company.  Its reputation, although less good than it once was, remains favorable with most travelers.  It has strong hubs, substantial alliances, fully developed systems, good facilities and orders for many airplanes it can acquire on favorable terms. It has various ways in which it can strengthen its domestic and international route system including expanded alliances, combinations with other carriers and organic growth initiatives.

To realize that future, American’s people must once again unite around a common vision.  Management must articulate the vision and lead the way, but others – including particularly the pilots – must set aside individual agendas and follow the lead.

What does that mean, specifically?

As a first step, I think everyone has to give management a shot.  Tom Horton has been in charge for only 10 months.  He cannot be held responsible for every decision and action taken during the last decade. He’ll have to earn your respect, but he deserves a chance to do so.

Second, everyone needs to understand that it’s management’s job to identify and weigh alternatives, and to recommend a course of action.  In the world as it is, management is getting lots of help – from the Board, the Court, and the Creditors. Since the decisions being made are very important, and will impact every employee, their opinions should be given careful consideration. There are many forums – including participation in the court process " in which employee views can and should be taken into account.  Management should listen carefully, but employees need to understand that it’s management’s job to decide and that acting in ways intended to undercut management’s role can only be counter-productive.

While the decision process is underway, everyone at American should be doing everything possible to improve performance, so that the post-bankruptcy company – whether American as it is or American combined with other entities – will have the broadest possible base of customer support from which to launch the renaissance every employee should be hoping for.

When the bankruptcy is over, every employee should strive to be the best they can be. Management should plan carefully, communicate broadly, do all it can to facilitate excellence, remove roadblocks to accomplishment, and encourage achievement. Every employee should recognize that every task is important and must be done well, that every commitment must be kept, and that every customer must be well served.

I hope these comments are responsive to your letter.  I sincerely believe that cooperation among everyone who hopes for a better future for American is the only route to success, and hope everyone will come to share that view.

Bob Crandall
September 23, 2012

Source: http://aviationblog....situation.html/

#2 divemaster08

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:23 AM

I enjoyed this letter. The old CEO knew what he was doing back in the day and I think its gonna need someone with his views to stand up and deal with Unions.

The current state that AA is in is just going downhill, I mean these pilots want respect, but are cancelling flights...... Come on chaps!

#3 Jonay

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:58 AM

I was waiting for a witty line along the lines of "so shut your hole and do your job" :lol:

dissapointed :( :P

+++++++++++++

Great example leadership though.

I have no idea what's going on with AA though.

#4 divemaster08

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:42 PM

I think he actually said those words without being so direct!

#5 89-LX

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:30 PM

To anyone that is putting down the AA pilot group and union: You have no clue what you're talking about. These pilots are being shafted, and what management is trying to do, hurts the industry overall for pilots. These pilots are sticking up for what their believe in.

Edited by 89-LX, 27 September 2012 - 08:30 PM.


#6 divemaster08

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:59 PM

89-LX

I agree that the pilots are getting shafted. However I do feel that sometimes pilots get too top heavy, and believe that they are the actual managers of the company, making sure that they sway the decisions into their benefit rather than thinking what would benefit the company as a whole.

AA pilots are/have been screwed by management, and for that reason I think the management at AA needs a big shake up. However I think that the past actions of the Unions have been childish and disgraceful (speaking of the current events happening).

I for one work at a company that, In My Opinion, is run poorly and is screwing me over. Many of my co-workers believe this also and are now waking up and wanting change, but are afraid to make it. We however have a respect for our customers, and while we feel action is required, we know..... correction, we understand that its not the customers fault, and if we piss them off any more, they will up and go and we lose all our income for something that was done by us, to try and screw management. Now how does that benefit us or the company? Its a hard line to try and stay on and i guess that as the common public don't know the proper stories, we are going to find it hard to get them on our side and help us (same situation I see the pilots at AA are fighting). However we have to remain a certain level or professionalism and make sure that our image is one of good nature, and under appreciated. This will allow us to gain the public backing required to 'force' change and be beneficial to us and the customers.

Making moves that makes us look like the child won't help. Same here with the Pilots.

Again, I understand that the pilots have had it worse for probably  a long time, but they also have had some sweet deals that have been going their way for a while which has affected the company, while the competition was able to 'slimline' their products/management and come out stronger in the end.

#7 89-LX

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:50 AM

divemaster - These pilots have worked with management in the past, and management is now throwing away everything that is going to hurt the ENTIRE industry with throwing scope away, having B pay scales, etc. These pilots are sticking up for the entire industry, and we are bound by a law passed in the 1920's which hurt us by not allowing us to strike. These is a line between respecting the custom and being walked on. May I ask how old you are, and how much experience you have in the aviation field?


For everyone, let me sum up what they are trying to impose on the pilot group:
  • No minimum guarantee.
  • No duty rig.
  • Schedule conflicts month to month will not be paid greater of.
  • Military protection for LOA.
  • B grade pay scales
  • Scope GONE.
  • No reserve assignment periods for reserve holders.
  • Schedule conflicts month to month will not be paid greater of.
  • Pension eliminated.
  • No profit sharing.
  • Company picks the hotels. No pilot group input.
  • You have to use sick time for OJI's.
Thats just a sum of the few things. Bolder being very bad not just for AMR, but for the industry as a whole.

Edited by 89-LX, 28 September 2012 - 07:52 AM.


#8 _NW_

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:54 AM

TL;DR

#9 E-Jet

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:28 AM

After seeing what the Air Canada pilot's wanted for their contract and what happened when they didn't get it, I could give a ###### about what any pilot wants.

#10 89-LX

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

View PostE-Jet, on 28 September 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

After seeing what the Air Canada pilot's wanted for their contract and what happened when they didn't get it, I could give a ###### about what any pilot wants.

I am unfamiliar with the whole AC situation, but I'm guessing you would PFT.

#11 divemaster08

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:15 AM

I am in my late 20s. While not an ageing person who has been around for ages to see a huge flavour of stuff, I have studied Aviation Management and work here in it (ATC- worked here for 5 years).

My knowledge of Unions in the US is however not the best, but if they are like Unions in the UK, they work for certain individuals, but not everyone as a whole.

I am all understanding about being on the sh#t end of a stick. I however am not familiar with what you would describe as:

"B grade pay scales"
From what i have seen. These "A grade" pays are pretty sweet. Heck I wish I was able to get up to maybe something like that, but Im not an FAA controller. With you being a commuter pilot, what scale would you say you are on (as I would say its the commuter group that are getting the most cr#p dumped on them, not the legacy pilots who have all these clause and scopes).

As I have said, I understand they are getting Shafted. No doubt about it. Standing up for what you believe in is one thing. But standing up against the company and affecting the customers is not helping. Your making yourself look worse to the Paying customer.

One point I want to attack at is the Hotel picking choice. I find that kind of interesting on why pilots should really have that BIG an input on where they stay. While I don't want you staying in a shack, I don't think pilots should be fighting for luxury when you can stay at a 'simple' hotel that has all you need. Understandably Location will also probably be taken into account.
Out of interest, im sure you have had to stay in company/union hotels. What exactly do you do there apart from sleep? Surely that is all is required (also a shower i hope!)

Going onto strike actions however, I have actually been affected my American Pilots striking. Had to take a different airline home and (if i recall it was a long time ago, Clinton was Prez) pay change fees to make sure I got to my destination on time. So laws can be broken also.

The airline industry is a different age now that what it was 15 years ago. LCC changed the way we travel, for everyone! Customers and Crews.

#12 89-LX

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:41 AM

View Postdivemaster08, on 28 September 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

My knowledge of Unions in the US is however not the best, but if they are like Unions in the UK, they work for certain individuals, but not everyone as a whole.

We work as a whole, for the most part.

View Postdivemaster08, on 28 September 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

"B grade pay scales"
From what i have seen. These "A grade" pays are pretty sweet. Heck I wish I was able to get up to maybe something like that, but Im not an FAA controller. With you being a commuter pilot, what scale would you say you are on (as I would say its the commuter group that are getting the most cr#p dumped on them, not the legacy pilots who have all these clause and scopes).

Some 737/767 pilots will be paid $xxxx, while others are paid  lower amount. Its not grading per amount, but more that you will have the same seniority as someone else, same equipment, but less pay.

View Postdivemaster08, on 28 September 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

As I have said, I understand they are getting Shafted. No doubt about it. Standing up for what you believe in is one thing. But standing up against the company and affecting the customers is not helping. Your making yourself look worse to the Paying customer.

I understand the customer, but every single time you cannot put the custom 100% in front of the employees. If this was the case, then everyone would make minimum wage so the customer can get the best deal.

View Postdivemaster08, on 28 September 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

One point I want to attack at is the Hotel picking choice. I find that kind of interesting on why pilots should really have that BIG an input on where they stay. While I don't want you staying in a shack, I don't think pilots should be fighting for luxury when you can stay at a 'simple' hotel that has all you need. Understandably Location will also probably be taken into account.
Out of interest, im sure you have had to stay in company/union hotels. What exactly do you do there apart from sleep? Surely that is all is required (also a shower i hope!)

The company will pick the worst hotels because they are the cheapest. Ones with crappy beds, bed bugs, noisy roads, ac units, thin walls, etc. They will also provide hotels with no food to get around them. We have long overnights (16+ hrs) that have to be in downtown locations for stuff for us to do. Food has to be provided at a hotel area for long and short overnights. Without pilot input, you will get fatigued pilots from the lack of quality sleeping conditions.


Airfare in the last 20 years has not changed, yet the cost has risen. Passengers want the lowest cost, and its hurting the industry.

#13 divemaster08

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:21 PM

I believe we are never going to see eye to eye on this 89-LX, but thats cool.... its healthy I like to think!

While I understand where the airlines always strive to cut costs, I would of thought that now with health and safety now playing a roll, it would be hard for airlines to be able to stay with the hotel you describe above. I would hope so. However what I would say is that you don't need a Ritz Carlton when an Embassy Suites/Town Place can do just fine.

Back to the payscales.........
Would you say that there are some FOs flying for AA that are under a commuter airline FO pay? Im sure they probably earn near some of the commuter captains.
Im going to get bashed for this I know already but I expect that the pilots complaining are the very senior ones, who are probably earning a very good salary flying the Long Hauls with overnights and a lot of expenses paid for when out away from home. They are most likely the one complaining cause they are the ones who are gonna lose the most.
Not saying that they don't deserve more money, but don't you think they are actually taking more than they give to the company? I do sound like I am going to get hate mail now but I am trying to look at it from outside the box.
I would probably say its due to the fact that other careers without the nessesary knowledge earn way to much for what they do. Which in turn makes it hard for the people who are professionals at their jobs feel worse, but thats for a different day and another story. (i mean come on, some 'sportsmen' are getting an awful lot for doing something special for 16 games a year!...... im losing my track here and going on a rant thats neither here nor there)

Costs are the major factor, and when Deregulation came into affect, its become a dog eat dog world out their for competitors. We as customers love this as it means companies have to fight for business and we get to take the lowest bidder really. Sadly thats the way it is now.
When LCC came in this became a problem for the likes of the Legacy Carriers, many tried to set up their own divisions of LCC, and they all failed due to the costs. Seen across Europe and North America. 9/11 happened, blew the legacies out really, and they all (but AA) filed for Chapter 11. This allowed them to remove a lot of costs under the protection and they have come out leaner and profits have been great. The rising cost of fuel has somehow killed a lot and we are now seeing fuel costs increase but they are still a lot better off than AA. Its hurt AA bad and sadly its come to this.

#14 Independence76

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:53 AM

View Post89-LX, on 27 September 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

To anyone that is putting down the AA pilot group and union: You have no clue what you're talking about. These pilots are being shafted, and what management is trying to do, hurts the industry overall for pilots. These pilots are sticking up for what their believe in.

I think you're not looking at the situation from an unbiased view. You are a union pilot for a smaller carrier.

Robert Crandall was the CEO of AA for 15 years and vaulted the airline from sub-par carrier into the top 3 of the US. Considering his experience with the unions pre-9/11 and bankruptcy, I'm more willing to believe he has the right idea of what's happening currently.

His reflection upon the mass cancellations cannot be more rational. The disrespect from a superior is not an excuse for the disrespect of a customer, nor the company's operations as a whole. This airline is in bankruptcy in a "balance sheet recession," which will be bloody whether we like it or not. It's not a pretty sight, and I don't think even management enjoys seeing employees being let go in such a manner, as opposed to what you may willingly assume. Calling in sick out of anger is only going to worsen the situation for everyone, whether they are an employee or customer.

Crandall is NOT excusing the actions of management. However, he IS condemning the acts of the pilots union as disruptive and damaging to the company as a whole.


If you cannot formulate that conclusion due to your own opinions, biases, or anger relating to pilot unions, that is simply not my problem and I refuse any attempt to fix it.

Good day.

Edited by Independence76, 29 September 2012 - 01:55 AM.


#15 Cactus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 02:17 AM

View Post89-LX, on 28 September 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

The company will pick the worst hotels because they are the cheapest. Ones with crappy beds, bed bugs, noisy roads, ac units, thin walls, etc. They will also provide hotels with no food to get around them. We have long overnights (16+ hrs) that have to be in downtown locations for stuff for us to do. Food has to be provided at a hotel area for long and short overnights. Without pilot input, you will get fatigued pilots from the lack of quality sleeping conditions.

So, in this circumstance, you suggest that your pilots will willingly violate FAA regulations and report for duty without being suitably rested. That's quite the implication.

#16 89-LX

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:36 AM

View Postdivemaster08, on 28 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

While I understand where the airlines always strive to cut costs, I would of thought that now with health and safety now playing a roll, it would be hard for airlines to be able to stay with the hotel you describe above. I would hope so. However what I would say is that you don't need a Ritz Carlton when an Embassy Suites/Town Place can do just fine.

Even the Embassy Suites has those issues. You have to remember, we also get special rates. The LGA long overnight is on times square, and we pay $154 a night as opposed to the going rate of $400+ a night for the general consumer. But all hotels suffer from issues. I forgot where I was, but a VERY upscale hotel, the roof fell apart in my room. I think it was in downtown Boston.

View Postdivemaster08, on 28 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Back to the payscales.........
Would you say that there are some FOs flying for AA that are under a commuter airline FO pay? Im sure they probably earn near some of the commuter captains.

Not saying that they don't deserve more money, but don't you think they are actually taking more than they give to the company? I do sound like I am going to get hate mail now but I am trying to look at it from outside the box.
I would probably say its due to the fact that other careers without the nessesary knowledge earn way to much for what they do. Which in turn makes it hard for the people who are professionals at their jobs feel worse, but thats for a different day and another story. (i mean come on, some 'sportsmen' are getting an awful lot for doing something special for 16 games a year!...... im losing my track here and going on a rant thats neither here nor there)

First part, the commuter pay for other airlines, like American Eagle, and separate airlines. Say you work for AA, and you have 5 years and there is another FO who has 5 yrs also. He will be paid more or less than you on the equipment depending on how equipment moved.

View PostIndependence76, on 29 September 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I think you're not looking at the situation from an unbiased view. You are a union pilot for a smaller carrier.

His reflection upon the mass cancellations cannot be more rational. The disrespect from a superior is not an excuse for the disrespect of a customer, nor the company's operations as a whole. This airline is in bankruptcy in a "balance sheet recession," which will be bloody whether we like it or not. It's not a pretty sight, and I don't think even management enjoys seeing employees being let go in such a manner, as opposed to what you may willingly assume. Calling in sick out of anger is only going to worsen the situation for everyone, whether they are an employee or customer.

If you cannot formulate that conclusion due to your own opinions, biases, or anger relating to pilot unions, that is simply not my problem and I refuse any attempt to fix it.

Smaller carrier? With close to 5,000 pilots and over 400 airplanes, compared to AMR's 8,500 pilots and just over 600 airplanes, we are very comparable. I actually work for one of the highest paid, and I'm on track to make close to $60,000 next year - with 15 days off a month.

Your opinion is EXTREMELY biased. Where do you come from Big oil money. Pilot pay isn't the biggest factor in aviation costs - fuel is. Tell your dad to take a cut of the companies oil profits. Its comparable to telling a pilot group to take a cut in their profits. Not only will the cut in oil profits help aviation, it will help everyone else out around this country too. The customers who buy refined oil for gasoline into their cars.

If you would read what I wrote, what the company is proposing will destruct this field even more so than it already has. Why continue the downward slide? Why don't people actually stand up for themselves? Do you condone the continued destruction of this field any more? If so, you contribute to the problem. This career is no longer becoming a career with job security and a good living. Its becoming worse and worse because of this.

View PostCactus, on 29 September 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

So, in this circumstance, you suggest that your pilots will willingly violate FAA regulations and report for duty without being suitably rested. That's quite the implication.

That's the problem. This has happened before. In previous situation, pilots have been put into these situations where absolute crap regulations are being forced upon them, and when they called in sick due to shotty hotels and food, or called in fatigue due to these conditions and bad work rules which were "legal" but not safe, and the pilot group was in trouble.



I will also add this in:

http://finance.yahoo...rated-jobs.html

Quote

Commercial Airline Pilot
Median Salary: $103,158

Sure, it may seem like soaring through the clouds and traveling the globe, but the airline industry has been devastated by cost-cutting efforts, which means on top of passenger safety, terrorism, and bad weather, many pilots now face lower salaries and budget pressures.

“Maybe they’re sitting on a tarmac too long and burning fuel, or the weather forces them to go out of their way and all of that is going to cost more – they now have many more concerns than just safely flying a plane,” Lee said.

As of right now, they an work me 16 straight hours, followed by 9 hours of "rest" which is more like an actual 6.5 hours of rest, followed by 16 hours on the next day, followed by another 6.5 hours of rest. They do do this to. A company during bankruptcy will do this to get the maximum usage out of their crews because its legal, but its not safe. So then a crew calls in fatigue, and then the government steps in and the pilot group gets in trouble.

Edited by 89-LX, 29 September 2012 - 08:44 AM.


#17 Cactus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:47 PM

View Post89-LX, on 29 September 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

That's the problem. This has happened before. In previous situation, pilots have been put into these situations where absolute crap regulations are being forced upon them, and when they called in sick due to shotty hotels and food, or called in fatigue due to these conditions and bad work rules which were "legal" but not safe, and the pilot group was in trouble.

View Post89-LX, on 29 September 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

A company during bankruptcy will do this to get the maximum usage out of their crews because its legal, but its not safe. So then a crew calls in fatigue, and then the government steps in and the pilot group gets in trouble.

Not only do the regulations state that you are expected to self-assess your physical fitness for duty, but as a professional pilot, you are obligated to abide by these rules. You make a sweeping generalization that, as a result of an individual pilot advising crew scheduling he is fatigued, that somehow, without any due process or regard for safety, the government will be notified and "step in" - and further, that the "pilot group" will somehow have sanctions placed against them. Such generalizations, although emotional, would suggest a very poor understanding of the responsibilities governed by an approved Fatigue Risk Management Program (14 CFR Part 121). Your fatigue book-off, supported by a fatigue report into the airline's FRMP, does not equate to industrial action.

On the other side of the coin - an airline can provide the average number of book-offs during any given day or month. Let's say this happens to double or triple during a time of labour unrest, so instead of looking at 20 pilots calling in sick on a normal day, we're dealing with an unprecedented 40 to 60 book-offs. Furthermore, this pilot is unable to produce a valid doctor's note to his/her Base Manager, and is not willing to produce or submit a valid fatigue report. You can believe whatever you want, but yes, this amounts to unauthorized industrial action by the pilot group. It is not an unfair expectation to request a doctor's note if an employee has booked off sick.

You ask why people don't actually stand up for themselves, and yet you indicate that your fellow pilots are willing to intentionally violate federal regulations and thus jeopardize the safety of their passengers. Why not start with exercising better responsibility and judgement as employees and professional pilots?

Edited by Cactus, 29 September 2012 - 12:49 PM.


#18 Independence76

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:42 PM

View Post89-LX, on 29 September 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Your opinion is EXTREMELY biased. Where do you come from Big oil money. Pilot pay isn't the biggest factor in aviation costs - fuel is. Tell your dad to take a cut of the companies oil profits. Its comparable to telling a pilot group to take a cut in their profits. Not only will the cut in oil profits help aviation, it will help everyone else out around this country too. The customers who buy refined oil for gasoline into their cars.

I'm merely defending Crandall. It's not my fault if you wish to accept his words with a thorough and mature opinion. This has nothing to do with oil.

Quote

If you would read what I wrote, what the company is proposing will destruct this field even more so than it already has. Why continue the downward slide? Why don't people actually stand up for themselves? Do you condone the continued destruction of this field any more? If so, you contribute to the problem. This career is no longer becoming a career with job security and a good living. Its becoming worse and worse because of this.

Bankruptcy isn't pretty. As far as I know, the economy isn't getting any better. Raising the pilots wages and cutting management bonuses will not magically fix the whole problem. That will only be a marginal change.

I have little confidence in current management, but it's rational to believe that this union sickout is only making things worse as opposed to better (FOR EVERYONE).

The pilot's union is having a partial UNAUTHORIZED strike. This is where the line gets drawn between "justified union" and "selfish union."


I have no other point to present. Cactus seems to have put any other argument forth that I would want to make.

#19 pieterjan456

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:05 AM

This remembers me a little bit of the good old Sabena we had over here. No other company wanted to buy it because of all the strikes they did. Some people even say it could have been saved if the pilots simply didn't strike that much.

I know it's a different story for AA, but it just reminded me of it.
I don't understand the good thing about a strike. Here, the national railway will go on strike next wednsday. Result? More loss for the company, more frustration with the passengers who work it out on the people working with the company, and more passengers turning their back on the company.
Will the management change thoughts because of a strike? I don't think so. The theoretical describtion of a union is great, but even now, the leader of the union was blaming the passengers for the strike here and was calling them egoistic and lousy.

The unions should get around the table with management and represent the workers. I fully agree. But don't make passengers a victim. It will only hurt the company in the long run. You get better working conditions by debating it around a table with management, not by going on strike.

I don't know what the wages are in the USA, but over here I know various pilots who were laughing with the fact that a 27 year old captain with Ryanair earns €6500 a month (after taxes). I don't know, but if I go to work with my degree, work 12 hours a day 6 days on 7 I maybe have half of that money. Maybe it's not much for captains in the industry, but it certainly is for other people.

#20 Independence76

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:26 AM

View Postpieterjan456, on 30 September 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

This remembers me a little bit of the good old Sabena we had over here. No other company wanted to buy it because of all the strikes they did. Some people even say it could have been saved if the pilots simply didn't strike that much.

Well, the main motivation in the late-1990's behind the Sabena strikes was not simply due to mismanagement, but also due to the fact that Swissair / SAirGroup refused to pay up when the money was requested (Swissair had a 49% stake in Sabena in 1994 which only went up in time). Swissair promised to fund the airline, but did not. They instead took their single profitable aspect of Sabena (logistics) and merged it right into SwissCargo.

TL;DR: Aggressive stake acquisition that went totally wrong.