18 replies to this topic

[.Ben]

To cut a long story short, I've had my eyes set on becoming a pilot for quite some time. I've completed my PPL and I'm now ready for the next stage of flight training, with the aim of working in the airlines or going corporate.

I was set to do half of my training in Florida; getting an FAA IR and MECPL, as well as doing hours building, and returning to the UK to convert the licences to EASA so that in effect I would have two licences for the price of one. However, my visa got refused as the officer didn't believe I'd return home to the UK once I had completed my training (!!)

The way I see it now is that I have two options. Either I will continue my flight training immediately in the UK, starting with my ATPL theory, and then progressing through the other licences. Training in the UK is very expensive though, and there is absolutely no guarantee of a job at the end of it.

My other option will be to go through clearing and join a university so that I have a degree to fall back on should flight training either not work out, or I don't get a job at the end of it. I have age on my side as I'm 20, and turning 21 at the end of this month.

What do you guys think? I'll answer any questions.

Cheers

-BC.

[Iain_]

I'm in the same position this year although with an uncompleted PPL. Have you already ruled out the likes of OAA/FTE/CTC as a possibility?

[Tim.]

Is there something you'd want to do at university or would you be going for the sake of it?

[roboa]

Iain_, on 06 September 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Have you already ruled out the likes of OAA/FTE/CTC as a possibility?

What, spending near £100K to essentially work as a temp for the likes of Easyjet, under poor conditions with no gurantee of work or whether you'll be able to secure a permanent job in the forseeable future? It'd have been the first thing I ruled out if things are the same with them as they were around 6 months ago, particularly CTC. The only kind of integrated scheme I'd even bother looking at would be one which is affiliated and run by an airline such as the collaboration between FTE and Flybe. Without applying via the collaborated schemes, it's not worth it imo.

Edited by roboa, 06 September 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[.Ben]

Iain_, on 06 September 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

I'm in the same position this year although with an uncompleted PPL. Have you already ruled out the likes of OAA/FTE/CTC as a possibility?

Almost definitely, for the reasons roboa has explained.

Tim., on 06 September 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Is there something you'd want to do at university or would you be going for the sake of it?

I'm currently searching for courses. I'm looking at courses similar to Music Technology/Industry, as it's another interest of mine. Since I'm already a reasonably proficient guitarist it would be nice to expand my knowledge, and look at the other areas of Music such as the production side or the management side. Other courses which may be of interest would be something to do with video editing/post production or similar.

I'm not going to lie: the night life and being away from home are big motivators for me. I believe moving away from home, becoming independent and being able to enjoy oneself, are vital stages of development. If I were to do flight training, this would involve moving away from home - however the incredibly high workload would not allow for the "down time" (girls, student unions etc!) that you would experience at university, I feel.

[premiere1]

I can definitely recommend attending a university. Whether or not you obtain an aviation degree is up to you. Some pilots reccomend you study business but at the end of the day, grab a bachelors degree in something you'll enjoy! At the end of it all, build flying time throughout this. If not, focus on your flying after you obtain your education. The more time you can devote to focusing on flying the better.

Whether you decide to fly Part 91, 121 or 135, companies want to see a college degree. Supplemental flight time is the key! It's expensive to build hours, but worth the end result!

Best of luck to ya

[Iain_]

premiere1, on 08 September 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

Whether you decide to fly Part 91, 121 or 135, companies want to see a college degree.

This isn't so much the case in the UK.

[roboa]

Iain_, on 08 September 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

This isn't so much the case in the UK.

Seriously? They've got 100s if not 1000s of inexperienced 20 odd year olds who've put themselves through integrated schemes to pick from. They can choose whoever they like. A university degree is quite obviously going to make you stand out over those who've gone straight into CTC at 18. No question of doubt. You come at of university with a heck of a lot more than just your degree. Compared to someone who just puts themselves into what is essentially further spoon fed education with an integreated flight school, life skills and greater levels of indepenedence would be one thing you'd have from the off. No disrespect to those who go through the integrated schemes but speaking obviously very generally, those are some of the key qualities you see people coming out of schemes like those lacking.

Ben, I don't know what your funds are like (or how high the workload is for the uni course you'd be looking at) but progressing through the required modules and taking a modular approach to your flight training could always be an option alongisde university. I'd imagine the progression would be slow but at the end of it, you'd have the option of taking on a graduate role in your chosen subject area or continuing with the final phases of flight training yourself. You'd be able to spread the cost of the flight training out over a longer period and the modular approach is often cheaper anyway. It'd be a good way of deciding which path you really want to progress down for the rest of your life too. It's definitely going to have to be a personal decision at the end of the day, just one which you're best taking your time in making!

[Iain_]

roboa, on 10 September 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Seriously? They've got 100s if not 1000s of inexperienced 20 odd year olds who've put themselves through integrated schemes to pick from. They can choose whoever they like. A university degree is quite obviously going to make you stand out over those who've gone straight into CTC at 18. No question of doubt. You come at of university with a heck of a lot more than just your degree. Compared to someone who just puts themselves into what is essentially further spoon fed education with an integreated flight school, life skills and greater levels of indepenedence would be one thing you'd have from the off. No disrespect to those who go through the integrated schemes but speaking obviously very generally, those are some of the key qualities you see people coming out of schemes like those lacking.

You've just made my point, people get into airlines at such young ages with no further education than secondary school.

Edited by Iain_, 10 September 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Chief_Bean]

Iain_, on 10 September 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

You've just made my point, people get into airlines at such young ages with no further education than secondary school.

That's not what he said. There is a horrifyingly diluted job market  - many of which are school leavers, yes. That's not to say that they're in a stronger position than someone with a degree.

My advice (if money isn't so much of an object) would be to go to university and do a modular course alongside/after graduation. The difference between graduates and non-graduates in terms of how rounded their personality is can be quite noticeable at times...will certainly give you the edge at application/interview stage.

Edited by Chief_Bean, 10 September 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[roboa]

Iain_, on 10 September 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

You've just made my point, people get into airlines at such young ages with no further education than secondary school.

Read what I put, please. People don't get into airlines at 'such young ages' with no further education than secondary school. In fact that's total crap. At the very least (in the UK), you need A levels to get onto those integrated courses. You don't even have to be capable now, just able to pay. So yeah, anyone can go through the training, brilliant. Enjoy sitting on the checkout in your local supermarket with your integrated training (it'll come in real handy there I'm sure) whilst you struggle to get a place in the RHS ahead of someone with a degree behind them, that's when the airlines start hiring again. Modular courses aren't as costly and allow you to more manageably spread the cost of loan repayments etc. I don't see the obsession with having everything NOW. It doesn't work like that and you don't get to develop yourself as a person. That's where schemes like these fall down, they can't give the same kind of experience as you'd get from going through 3/4 years of Uni. I just see no negative that would push someone into integrated training ahead of a degree and modular training to fall back on.

As CB points out, the difference between those who've been through uni vs. those who've not can be startling to say the least.

The above's all my opinion so hey, do what you want but seeing as it's not 2005 anymore when you really could go from college, through an integrated training provider and straight into a permanent RHS job with a reputable employer with fair working conditions, I know what I'd be doing.

[SwitchFX]

The issue goes back way before 2005. It's always been around, it's just been more prevalent in the last decade. University or a very good trade is a must in this world, but you need the networking and experience to land a job. A piece of paper tells an employer nothing except that you're very good at remembering information and repeating it in various ways, such as an exam question. That and STEM is full of graduates who have no passion and simply did it for the money involved, and they're likely rather anti-social or so thick in the head you wonder how they've managed thus far in life.

[pieterjan456]

SwitchFX, on 10 September 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

The issue goes back way before 2005. It's always been around, it's just been more prevalent in the last decade. University or a very good trade is a must in this world, but you need the networking and experience to land a job. A piece of paper tells an employer nothing except that you're very good at remembering information and repeating it in various ways, such as an exam question. That and STEM is full of graduates who have no passion and simply did it for the money involved, and they're likely rather anti-social or so thick in the head you wonder how they've managed thus far in life.

Depends on what you study. I really don't have much courses you really can study. It's more understanding principles and applying them. But I see your point. I guess it also depends on location and on what you have done. Here the technology sector is often complaining about not having enough engineers, so most of them already have a job before graduating (or only a few months after graduating).
I think apart from the degree, you should show your potential future employer you are willing to invest in yourself too. Time, extra courses, extra school activities (student council and so on).

As for your choice: I don't know,I have been in the same situation and from time to time i have the feeling of 'regret'. But then again, getting a degree hasn't killed anyone, if your airline plan fails (or you don't find a job) you don't have to go work in your local supermarket (with all respect for the people working there).
I know guys who have done flight training who regret doing it and would never do it again. Do you have other things you're interested in? If so, I'd rather get a degree in that field first and start working/saving for flight training.

Edited by pieterjan456, 11 September 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[Iain_]

roboa, on 10 September 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Read what I put, please. People don't get into airlines at 'such young ages' with no further education than secondary school. In fact that's total crap. At the very least (in the UK), you need A levels to get onto those integrated courses. You don't even have to be capable now, just able to pay. So yeah, anyone can go through the training, brilliant. Enjoy sitting on the checkout in your local supermarket with your integrated training (it'll come in real handy there I'm sure) whilst you struggle to get a place in the RHS ahead of someone with a degree behind them, that's when the airlines start hiring again. Modular courses aren't as costly and allow you to more manageably spread the cost of loan repayments etc. I don't see the obsession with having everything NOW. It doesn't work like that and you don't get to develop yourself as a person. That's where schemes like these fall down, they can't give the same kind of experience as you'd get from going through 3/4 years of Uni. I just see no negative that would push someone into integrated training ahead of a degree and modular training to fall back on.

As CB points out, the difference between those who've been through uni vs. those who've not can be startling to say the least.

The above's all my opinion so hey, do what you want but seeing as it's not 2005 anymore when you really could go from college, through an integrated training provider and straight into a permanent RHS job with a reputable employer with fair working conditions, I know what I'd be doing.

It's far from total crap, there's evidence to prove it.

Edited by Iain_, 11 September 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[George Bush]

I'm going to say sth very controversial to the general opinion on this thread. OAA and CTC is the only way to go.

Having scanned PPrune for a very long time, along with several friends who have got into the RHS, they are all either CTC or OAA and have gone into mainly Monarch, Ryanair or easyjet. The job market is very very bad at the moment. And the few who are getting pilot jobs are those who are stupid enough to invest their life (that horrific loan is signing your life away) into one of the big 2. The one thing you can say for CTC is that they do garuntee a placement, unforunately not a permenant placement, and no garuntee you will get through training, pass your type rating etc. They are also known to be very clever with their terms and conditions of contract.

The situation is not good atall but whatever troubles you're going to have as a CTC or OAA getting into the business are only going to be exasperated by being a modular student because there are just as many low hours hopefuls stuck in hoards of 250 hour pilots with all their ratings, the requirement to keep it current, and just as little garuntee of getting a job as an intergrated student except they don't have the assurance that at least airlines are going to respect the school they went to and easyjet may start feeding from the holding pool of that school every few years. As they do with CTC. If you went modular you could go try finding a job in Africa or somewhere to build hours but that is just as sketchy, unreliable and unhospitable as any option. So all I would surmise from that is that if you are going to go intergrated, make sure its CTC or OAA.

About uni, don't go unless you really really want to- or you'll mess that up and when you drop out having no explanation as to why you spent a few years in uni with no degree at the end it will look worse than if you didn't go. It's not crap that people go through intergrated schools to airlines with not even alevels becasue I know personally someone who did, in the past few months.

Edited by George Bush, 18 September 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Iain_]

Of pilots I've spoken to, only one got to the RHS via modular. From what it seems, the integrated courses are indeed the way to go. When you seen CTC/OAA is the only way to go, I assume you mean integrated, not those two specifically.

[George Bush]

Iain_, on 18 September 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Of pilots I've spoken to, only one got to the RHS via modular. From what it seems, the integrated courses are indeed the way to go. When you seen CTC/OAA is the only way to go, I assume you mean integrated, not those two specifically.

From what I was told by someone who had got to the RHS, OAA and CTC specifically seem to be the only routes. Whether that's correct or not I don't know.

Edited by George Bush, 18 September 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Visionary]

Have you seen the starting salaries for Ryan and Easy, they are a joke. If I was flying 4+ sectors a day on that pay I would be very depressed indeed!

[George Bush]

Visionary, on 21 September 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Have you seen the starting salaries for Ryan and Easy, they are a joke. If I was flying 4+ sectors a day on that pay I would be very depressed indeed!

For low hours pilots these airlines are the only hope, with very few exceptions every other airline wants candidates with previous airline experience. With the exception of the BA future pilot scheme, who otherwise take pilots from CTC, and the flybe scheme I'd say young pilots watch out for tumbleweeds.