65 replies to this topic

[Chief NWA]

Jesus.
So we have Level-D, Captain Sim and Posky. Not to mention, Posky is working on a newer model too!  

I, personally, am fine with my Level-D 763. I wish they would do something else like 777.

[FL050]

If I had neither 767, and was looking into one, I would buy the Level-D solely based upon what CS did, is doing, and will do in the future to their customers.

They royally screwed over the people that bought their 757 in the early stages, and still haven't fixed the bugs in the newest versions of the 757.

They aren't getting any of my money - especially considering the great quality and reputation Level-D brings; its a guaranteed A+ product.

[Edge68]

I have the Level D 767 in FS9, and I bought it to practice and get used to it because a friend and I were able to schedule time in a real full motion simulator. ( It was a thrill ). The flight dynamics in the Level D are very close to the real plane. And when I walked into the simulator, I didn't feel lost and could find most of the buttons and switches we needed to get her airborn and back, no crashes!!
You have to plan ahead with this plane compared to say a 737. It's a heavy, and it acts like it, takes a while to get slowed down. What I was surprised at was in the real sim, how quick it got going down the runway. It moved!! I'm ready to do it again.  

[THBatMan8]

^ Yeah, the LDS 763 would be a good place to start to get you're ears dirty, but it's still a far cry from it's real counterpart and we have MSFS to thank for that. The more I look into X-Plane, the more I like it. A bold move for Captain Sim would be to make the 767 for X-Plane and they would probably dominate that portion of the market, provided they actually make a bug free plane.


@ FL050, I completely agree and that's why I haven't purchased this plane yet. I've had nothing but problems with the 757 and it basically sits in the FS hanger collecting dust and rust (I've learned to live with the bugs on the 727).  

Edited by B763ER, 15 July 2009 - 03:07 AM.

[Alaska_MD-83]

I refuse to live with the trim issue on the 727. It's a deal buster for me. Everytime I touch the trim it upsets the plane. I won't buy another one of their products until they fix the trim issue on the 727. I paid $80 for the 727. I expect an overwhelming flaw like the trim to be fixed. I hope your listening CS!!! I'm still waiting.

[FSXman]

JET PILOT, on Jul 15 2009, 04:37 PM, said:

I refuse to live with the trim issue on the 727. It's a deal buster for me. Everytime I touch the trim it upsets the plane. I won't buy another one of their products until they fix the trim issue on the 727. I paid $80 for the 727. I expect an overwhelming flaw like the trim to be fixed. I hope your listening CS!!! I'm still waiting.

I don't have this problem at all with my 727, so it is not an issue with the CS 727.  So many times people run into trouble with a sim and just take for granted it is a problem with the sim, when it is actually a problem with their setup.
I download the same file that you do and my trim works fine, so there is nothing wrong with the sim unless it just healed for me.

[FSXman]

FL050, on Jul 14 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

If I had neither 767, and was looking into one, I would buy the Level-D solely based upon what CS did, is doing, and will do in the future to their customers.

They royally screwed over the people that bought their 757 in the early stages, and still haven't fixed the bugs in the newest versions of the 757.

They aren't getting any of my money - especially considering the great quality and reputation Level-D brings; its a guaranteed A+ product.

LD is a very good sim, but I wouldn't say A+.  Maybe at one time it was, but it has outdated graphics for todays FSX standards.  They would be smart to rework the visual model, especially within the VC cockpit.
For the old timers that are dedicated 2d cockpit users, it is right up their alley, but for FSX visual standards, it is falling a little behind.

[THBatMan8]

signmanbob, on Jul 15 2009, 06:55 PM, said:

JET PILOT, on Jul 15 2009, 04:37 PM, said:

I refuse to live with the trim issue on the 727. It's a deal buster for me. Everytime I touch the trim it upsets the plane. I won't buy another one of their products until they fix the trim issue on the 727. I paid $80 for the 727. I expect an overwhelming flaw like the trim to be fixed. I hope your listening CS!!! I'm still waiting.

I don't have this problem at all with my 727, so it is not an issue with the CS 727.  So many times people run into trouble with a sim and just take for granted it is a problem with the sim, when it is actually a problem with their setup.
I download the same file that you do and my trim works fine, so there is nothing wrong with the sim unless it just healed for me.

I also have the same problems with the trim on the 727. The trim is operated electronically by either a main trim motor or a autopilot/cruise trim motor. The autopilot/cruise trim motor provides a slower rate of trim movement than the main trim motor. The trim bugs Jet Pilot is mentioning is the failure of the stabilizer trim to revert to the different motors based on the amount of nose up or nose down trim applied.

[FSXman]

I haven't experienced this and I've flown the 727 quite a lot, but I will take another look.  I know I have never had a problem of loosing control.  This Captain Sim 727 flies beautifully and is one of the easier ones to manually land.

[THBatMan8]

signmanbob, on Jul 15 2009, 09:27 PM, said:

I haven't experienced this and I've flown the 727 quite a lot, but I will take another look.  I know I have never had a problem of loosing control.  This Captain Sim 727 flies beautifully and is one of the easier ones to manually land.

It's got some issues, but I think most of the issues are linked to MSFS limitations. I personally think they need to rework the FDE because it flies more like the default 737 than a 727 IMO (sounds like the default 737 also and IIRC, they had the default 737 panel on it before they finally released the 727QW visuals). I've got a few more pet peeves (IE the generators always disconnect from the bus bar when you change the fuel/cargo/pax load) but most of them are minor and I developed workarounds but they mess up my flows.  


The trim is by biggest headache. The real 727 won't revert to the main trim motor until the stabilizer trim is 1.5 units nose down/up. The trim is way to sensitive on Captain Sim's bird IMO.  

Edited by B763ER, 15 July 2009 - 08:39 PM.

[Alaska_MD-83]

I have no issues with my software. I can trim from full stabiliser nose down to full stabiliser nose up in appro 2 seconds. That's not realistic and makes triming during departures and arrivals very difficult. I have no issues with any other plane I own.

As mentioned by B763ER already the main trim motor operates too quickly. The portion of the cruise trim from 0 - 1.5U nose down operates just fine.

Edited by JET PILOT, 15 July 2009 - 08:46 PM.

[THBatMan8]

JET PILOT, on Jul 15 2009, 09:37 PM, said:

I have no issues with my software. I can trim from full stabiliser nose down to full stabiliser nose up in appro 2 seconds. That's not realistic and makes triming during departures and arrivals very difficult. I have no issues with any other plane I own.

As mentioned by B763ER already the main trim motor operates too quickly. The portion of the cruise trim from 0 - 1.5U nose down operates just fine.

Yup, I use to like flying the DF727 (FS9) manually all the way to the TOC, but the trim issues on Captain Sim's bird had me engaging the SP-50 Block IV @ the AH in VOR LOC mode.  

Edited by B763ER, 15 July 2009 - 09:09 PM.

[FSXman]

B763ER, on Jul 15 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

signmanbob, on Jul 15 2009, 06:55 PM, said:

JET PILOT, on Jul 15 2009, 04:37 PM, said:

I refuse to live with the trim issue on the 727. It's a deal buster for me. Everytime I touch the trim it upsets the plane. I won't buy another one of their products until they fix the trim issue on the 727. I paid $80 for the 727. I expect an overwhelming flaw like the trim to be fixed. I hope your listening CS!!! I'm still waiting.

I don't have this problem at all with my 727, so it is not an issue with the CS 727.  So many times people run into trouble with a sim and just take for granted it is a problem with the sim, when it is actually a problem with their setup.
I download the same file that you do and my trim works fine, so there is nothing wrong with the sim unless it just healed for me.

I also have the same problems with the trim on the 727. The trim is operated electronically by either a main trim motor or a autopilot/cruise trim motor. The autopilot/cruise trim motor provides a slower rate of trim movement than the main trim motor. The trim bugs Jet Pilot is mentioning is the failure of the stabilizer trim to revert to the different motors based on the amount of nose up or nose down trim applied.

Actually the trim motors don't "revert" automatically in the 727.  The main electrical trim motor is powered at fast speed by the trim switches on the yoke.  The autopilot trim motor  is operated by the autopilot or by the cruise trim switch on the pedestal which will allow for a slow manual trim adjustment at high speed.
Then you have the manual cable on the trim wheel which will override everything.
Fast trim speed is used when flaps and gear are extended, while slow speed is used with gear and flaps up.
(Boeing 727 Flight Master by Cpt. John A. Moktadier ©2004)

[Alaska_MD-83]

Per my companies AOM Volume 2 and backed up by another copy I have of the Boeing issued 727 AOM...

Quote

The horizintal stabiliser is operated electrically by either the main trim motor or an autopilot/cruise trim motor. The autopilot/cruise trim motor provides a slower rate of stabilizer movement than the main trim motor. When the stabilizer is being trimmed byt the main electric control switches (control wheel switches) between 0 and 1.5 units NOSE DOWN, the input signal automatically transfers to the autopilot/cruise trim motor. A NOSE UP trim input in this flight range will revet back to the main trim motor.

So the switching is automatic. In the CS 727 simulation the nose up trim when between 0 and 1.5 units operates at slow speed when it should be operating at high speed. When trimming nose up in the green band the CS 727 simulation operates much too quickly. The visual cue in the CS 727 simulation shows a 1:1 ratio between the trim wheel and the trim position indicator. That is also incorrect.

I have 0ver 3000 hours in the 727 and I can tell you that the trim simulation isn't accurate. I thought that the flap position switched betwen the 2 modes, but I realized I was wrong when I checked the AOM. I love the plane except for this glaring flaw. I wish they would fix it. So far my requests have fallen on deaf ears I believe.

[THBatMan8]

JET PILOT, on Jul 16 2009, 03:07 AM, said:

Per my companies AOM Volume 2 and backed up by another copy I have of the Boeing issued 727 AOM...

Quote

The horizintal stabiliser is operated electrically by either the main trim motor or an autopilot/cruise trim motor. The autopilot/cruise trim motor provides a slower rate of stabilizer movement than the main trim motor. When the stabilizer is being trimmed byt the main electric control switches (control wheel switches) between 0 and 1.5 units NOSE DOWN, the input signal automatically transfers to the autopilot/cruise trim motor. A NOSE UP trim input in this flight range will revet back to the main trim motor.

So the switching is automatic. In the CS 727 simulation the nose up trim when between 0 and 1.5 units operates at slow speed when it should be operating at high speed. When trimming nose up in the green band the CS 727 simulation operates much too quickly. The visual cue in the CS 727 simulation shows a 1:1 ratio between the trim wheel and the trim position indicator. That is also incorrect.

I have 0ver 3000 hours in the 727 and I can tell you that the trim simulation isn't accurate. I thought that the flap position switched betwen the 2 modes, but I realized I was wrong when I checked the AOM. I love the plane except for this glaring flaw. I wish they would fix it. So far my requests have fallen on deaf ears I believe.

Yup, as this is what I was referring to earlier. Another problem they need to fix is the GPWS. I always get the "Sink Rate" aerial warning no matter what my descent rate is and turning on the flap/gear proximity override switch doesn't help as it should on the real 727.

@ Signmanbob, I'm not trying to degrade Captain Sim here but I'm trying to offer some constructive criticism on problems that need to be fixed. If these issues can be fixed along with reworking the FDE, their 727 will be a very good plane (Level-D quality). I'm not going to buy anything else from them until they fix the problems on their planes I have now.  

Edited by B763ER, 16 July 2009 - 09:09 AM.

[FSXman]

JET PILOT, on Jul 16 2009, 02:07 AM, said:

Per my companies AOM Volume 2 and backed up by another copy I have of the Boeing issued 727 AOM...

Quote

The horizintal stabiliser is operated electrically by either the main trim motor or an autopilot/cruise trim motor. The autopilot/cruise trim motor provides a slower rate of stabilizer movement than the main trim motor. When the stabilizer is being trimmed byt the main electric control switches (control wheel switches) between 0 and 1.5 units NOSE DOWN, the input signal automatically transfers to the autopilot/cruise trim motor. A NOSE UP trim input in this flight range will revet back to the main trim motor.

So the switching is automatic. In the CS 727 simulation the nose up trim when between 0 and 1.5 units operates at slow speed when it should be operating at high speed. When trimming nose up in the green band the CS 727 simulation operates much too quickly. The visual cue in the CS 727 simulation shows a 1:1 ratio between the trim wheel and the trim position indicator. That is also incorrect.

I have 0ver 3000 hours in the 727 and I can tell you that the trim simulation isn't accurate. I thought that the flap position switched betwen the 2 modes, but I realized I was wrong when I checked the AOM. I love the plane except for this glaring flaw. I wish they would fix it. So far my requests have fallen on deaf ears I believe.

That's interesting.  I couldn't argue the point (and wouldn't) because I'm not a pilot at all, and surely won't argue with one that is type rated on the aircraft in question (that would be pretty dumb).
I haven't found that in the book that I have and it makes me wonder if it is an improvement that was made in later years.  I know that the 727 has been around for a while and took on any number of improvements along the way.
I normally fly in autopilot after gaining altitude on departure or until I reach around 1000 ft on final, so this characteristic of the CS727 hasn't caused me any problems.

763, you should go to the Captain Sim forum and suggest these updates.  Or if you don't mind I will copy/paste your comments on the forum and see what his response will be.

[Alaska_MD-83]

signmanbob, on Jul 16 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

JET PILOT, on Jul 16 2009, 02:07 AM, said:

Per my companies AOM Volume 2 and backed up by another copy I have of the Boeing issued 727 AOM...

Quote

The horizintal stabiliser is operated electrically by either the main trim motor or an autopilot/cruise trim motor. The autopilot/cruise trim motor provides a slower rate of stabilizer movement than the main trim motor. When the stabilizer is being trimmed byt the main electric control switches (control wheel switches) between 0 and 1.5 units NOSE DOWN, the input signal automatically transfers to the autopilot/cruise trim motor. A NOSE UP trim input in this flight range will revet back to the main trim motor.

So the switching is automatic. In the CS 727 simulation the nose up trim when between 0 and 1.5 units operates at slow speed when it should be operating at high speed. When trimming nose up in the green band the CS 727 simulation operates much too quickly. The visual cue in the CS 727 simulation shows a 1:1 ratio between the trim wheel and the trim position indicator. That is also incorrect.

I have 0ver 3000 hours in the 727 and I can tell you that the trim simulation isn't accurate. I thought that the flap position switched betwen the 2 modes, but I realized I was wrong when I checked the AOM. I love the plane except for this glaring flaw. I wish they would fix it. So far my requests have fallen on deaf ears I believe.

That's interesting.  I couldn't argue the point (and wouldn't) because I'm not a pilot at all, and surely won't argue with one that is type rated on the aircraft in question (that would be pretty dumb).
I haven't found that in the book that I have and it makes me wonder if it is an improvement that was made in later years.  I know that the 727 has been around for a while and took on any number of improvements along the way.
I normally fly in autopilot after gaining altitude on departure or until I reach around 1000 ft on final, so this characteristic of the CS727 hasn't caused me any problems.

763, you should go to the Captain Sim forum and suggest these updates.  Or if you don't mind I will copy/paste your comments on the forum and see what his response will be.

Hi Bob... No changes have been made to the trim system since the original type certificate was issued. Any changes would have been noted in a revision in the AOM or included in the "differences" section. We have 727-100's/200's and 200-ADV and they all have the same trim system.

I have filled out a ticket and haven't heard a response from them and posted it in the forum they have. Feel free to copy and paste. Thanks for your help!

Edited by JET PILOT, 16 July 2009 - 03:53 PM.

[THBatMan8]

I have went to their forums as well as submitted a few tickets to the Captain Sim team and never heard back from them. You're more than welcome to copy and paste my comments though.

*EDIT*

BTW, can you see if they have plans to model the SP-150 Block V in a future update?

Edited by B763ER, 16 July 2009 - 04:04 PM.

[FSXman]

I will do that.  I'm sure any developer is interested in making their sim better.  Because CS doesn't answer you, doesn't mean that he won't look into it.  Even when he does answer, it is usually just a short comment.

Really, I find none of these sims are perfect  ( hopefully, Airsimmer may turn out to be an exception).  For one thing FSX has limitations that narrow the field of realism.  For another, I think the developer feels that he has to stop at some point and put it on the market.
I like Level D quite a lot also and think it is a great sim, but I find the plane has problems following the flight path plan and speed as closely as I believe the real one would.  In my aviation movies, I have never seen a pilot have to correct the aircraft back to the FMC flight path manually,  but that is what I have to do several times during a longer flight with my Level D.  Also it seems to have a tendency to not hold speed as closely as the examples that I have seen.  That doesn't deter me from enjoying the Level D 763, although I did have to get rid of the awfully cheesy engine sound that it came with it (replacing them with TSS) and I do believe it is long overdue for a good graphics overhaul that would bring it up to FSX standards.


For someone who is a real world type rated commercial pilot, I can't imagine any FSX sim would really be satisfying.  It would be like a graphic artist getting stuck with using Photopaint instead of Adobi Photoshop CS4.
It's more likely for an arm chair airline sim enthusiast, like myself, to be satisfied when things don't work exactly quite like the "real McCoy".   It's still as close as I'll ever get and it's still entertaining.  Which is what this is all about since I'm not using FSX as a training tool.

As good as Level D is, it has its weak points and I don't have any desire to see just one developer making airline sims for FSX.  Especially one that will spend years without an update or new model that would bring it up to current FSX graphic standards.
Each developer that makes these complex sims has their strong and weak points and as long as I find their sims entertaining, I will continue to support them by buying their latest releases.
I have watched the CS 757 come a long way in improving to a point of being the best 757 available with the latest 4.3 update.  Captain Sim keeps working faithfully to update his simulations for FSX (I believe he is done updating for FS9).  I'm sure that if you contacted him on this point, he is taking it into consideration even if he hasn't responded, but like I said, I will mention it to him too.  I have had pretty good luck getting CS to respond to my concerns.

Bob

B763ER, on Jul 16 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

*EDIT*

BTW, can you see if they have plans to model the SP-150 Block V in a future update?

What is an SP-150 Block V?