91 replies to this topic

[LA_PHX]

Wampa_Stompa, on Jul 15 2010, 02:52 AM, said:

THBatMan8, on Jul 15 2010, 01:48 AM, said:

You bash them all the time though. And you can't say that the military is much better because in reality they aren't. They make mistakes also.

I've yet to see them do this...or land on a taxiway..or over shoot their landing sites by 400 miles..or land at the wrong airport..

Our wonderful military at work:

xerAKo00fGQ

Almost killed multiple people and sent two planes down.  I'd say that is a lot worse than overshooting an airport or landing on an empty taxiway.  

What U.S. commercial flights are landing at the wrong airport?

Edited by LA_BOS, 15 July 2010 - 02:09 AM.

[THBatMan8]

Wampa_Stompa, on Jul 15 2010, 03:02 AM, said:

1.) Given how basic the mistakes are, they're one time too many. And again-military has never made those mistakes from our knowledge. So that does add some superiority.

2.) I am talking about route clearance. I don't think any of these planes were sitting at the runway entrance for nine hours...

1) Oh, our military does make basic mistakes also. Dropping bombs on the wrong target, dropping supplies to the enemy (Vietnam in particular), etc, etc.

2) Route clearance is given before taxi. LA BOS pretty much nailed it on the head. You do seem to make these transactions simpler than what they actually are.

[LA_PHX]

SwitchFX, on Jul 15 2010, 02:15 AM, said:

I like to think that FSW is dysfunctional family.

Dysfunctional yeah, but please don't joke about it being anything close to a family.  I twitched at the thought of that.

[Prancer]

LA_BOS, on Jul 15 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

Wampa_Stompa, on Jul 15 2010, 02:52 AM, said:

THBatMan8, on Jul 15 2010, 01:48 AM, said:

You bash them all the time though. And you can't say that the military is much better because in reality they aren't. They make mistakes also.

I've yet to see them do this...or land on a taxiway..or over shoot their landing sites by 400 miles..or land at the wrong airport..

Our wonderful military at work:

xerAKo00fGQ

Almost killed multiple people and sent two planes down.  I'd say that is a lot worse than overshooting an airport or landing on an empty taxiway.  

What U.S. commercial flights are landing at the wrong airport?

Actually, that video could have been at a civil airport too. Many large airports also have an ANG fighter wing.

And here's one example of a US commercial flight landing at the wrong airport.

http://www.allbusine...t/165691-1.html

[LA_PHX]

Wampa_Stompa, on Jul 15 2010, 03:13 AM, said:

Actually, that video could have been at a civil airport too. Many large airports also have an ANG fighter wing.

And here's one example of a US commercial flight landing at the wrong airport.

http://www.allbusine...t/165691-1.html

Well, the description box says:

Quote

An Air Force ATC screws up big time

I'm not sure how reliable the description is but that is all I could find.  But I suppose you could be right about it being a civilian controller, something I hadn't thought of.  I found the video at Military.com and it doesn't specify.  Regardless, as Bat Man said, the military makes plenty of mistakes.  This was just the first video I thought of.

And regarding the link you posted, yeah, that is a big mistake and it shouldn't have happened.  I'll give you that one.  But also, did anyone else, like, I don't know, a controller, ever notice the plane they just gave a clearance to wasn't actually there?  But yes, that was a mistake and the U.S. aviation industry makes mistakes.  In such a large industry (in an industry or any business or any...anything), mistakes will be made.  I'm not justifying them but at the same time, I don't think anyone in this thread claimed the commercial airlines the the U.S. were perfect and didn't make mistakes.

[Prancer]

LA_BOS, on Jul 15 2010, 02:29 AM, said:

Wampa_Stompa, on Jul 15 2010, 03:13 AM, said:

Actually, that video could have been at a civil airport too. Many large airports also have an ANG fighter wing.

And here's one example of a US commercial flight landing at the wrong airport.

http://www.allbusine...t/165691-1.html

Well, the description box says:

Quote

An Air Force ATC screws up big time

I'm not sure how reliable the description is but that is all I could find.  But I suppose you could be right about it being a civilian controller, something I hadn't thought of.  I found the video at Military.com and it doesn't specify.  Regardless, as Bat Man said, the military makes plenty of mistakes.  This was just the first video I thought of.

And regarding the link you posted, yeah, that is a big mistake and it shouldn't have happened.  I'll give you that one.  But also, did anyone else, like, I don't know, a controller, ever notice the plane they just gave a clearance to wasn't actually there?  But yes, that was a mistake and the U.S. aviation industry makes mistakes.  In such a large industry (in an industry or any business or any...anything), mistakes will be made.  I'm not justifying them but at the same time, I don't think anyone in this thread claimed the commercial airlines the the U.S. were perfect and didn't make mistakes.

Well, the box said he got it from another website, which I couldn't find this video on when I looked. However, if you look at the list of airports with a fighter wing (more than most realize), the odds of it are high. Here's a current list for an FYI, even if you're a spotter.

Airports with an F-15 wing

-Jacksonville International Airport (125th Fighter Wing)
-Honolulu International Airport (154th Fighter Wing)
-Barnes Municipal Airport (104th Fighter Wing)
-Great Falls International Airport (120th Fighter Wing)
-Portland International Airport (142nd Fighter Wing)
-Kingsley Field (173rd Fighter Wing)

Airports with an F-16 wing

-Montgomery Regional Airport (187th Fighter Wing)
-Tuscon International Airport (162nd Fighter Wing)
-Fresno Yosemite International Airport (144th Fighter Wing)
-Abraham Lincoln Capital Airport (183rd Fighter Wing)
-Des Moines International Airport (132nd Fighter Wing)
-Duluth International Airport (148th Fighter Wing)
-Atlantic City International Airport (177th Fighter Wing)
-Springfield-Beckley Municipal Airport (178th Fighter Wing)
-Toledo Express Airport (180th Fighter Wing)
-Tulsa International Airport (138th Fighter Wing)
-Joe Foss Field (114th Fighter Wing)
-Burlington International Airport (158th Fighter Wing)
-Truax Field (115th Fighter Wing)

Airports with an A-10 wing

-Boise Air Terminal (124th Fighter Wing)
-Martin State Airport (175th Fighter Wing)
-Forth Smith Airport (188th Fighter Wing)

[_NW_]

Alrighty I wanted to chime in here...  since I actually have working knowledge AND experience in exactly what's being talked about (just not United, I worked for Delta for over 5 years)

First, all US airlines try to overbook flights.  They are permitted to do so by a percentage of total seats on the aircraft in hopes that some of the full fare passengers won't show up (or will rebook on other flights).

Second, NO AIRLINE will kick people off a flight in an attempt to save money by reducing weight.  

Third, airline's will kick people off AFTER asking for volunteers so the flight can depart on time and/or in a safe way (IE, not overweight).  

Fourth, it is VERY EASY to over gross a regional aircraft.  I ran into this EVERY day.  Without knowing the type aircraft, it's hard to comprehend a reason for needing to remove 20 passengers from a flight...   and with more and more regional airplanes flying around, the issue will only become more common.

Fifth, if an airline needs volunteers and no one volunteers, airlines will choose passengers by check-in time.  Unless United's computers system is different, most of the computer systems to run a flight at a gate do not display a column of passengers pay, the program is set up to display check in time, but not how much they paid for a ticket.  The article never said they picked the lowest ticket..  it says they're being accused of it, but no where does it say it actually happened.

Sixth, every article written against a major company always puts the customer in the victim's chair.  This is our society, and I deal with it on a daily basis.  You'd actually be surprised that stuff like this happens every day.  Every day in the US, flights run into overweight problems...   a flight has to go, so one way or another, they're going to remove people and accommodate them on other flights.

Seventh, every airline has a contract-of-carriage.  When you buy your ticket, you are given the chance to read it.  99% of people don't.  It's a contract, you should.  In that contract, it says that in some cases people won't be able to board an aircraft..  meaning just because you bought a ticket doesn't mean you're actually going to fly on that specific flight.  If you don't read the contract, that's your fault...  but our culture has become so ignorant that we always assume bigger corporations are the evil and we're the innocent victim.

[SwitchFX]

LA_BOS, on Jul 15 2010, 12:12 AM, said:

SwitchFX, on Jul 15 2010, 02:15 AM, said:

I like to think that FSW is dysfunctional family.

Dysfunctional yeah, but please don't joke about it being anything close to a family.  I twitched at the thought of that.

We're not THAT type of family, maybe in Utah, but not here.

Edited by SwitchFX, 15 July 2010 - 08:21 PM.

[LA_PHX]

^


On the topic of air-traffic delays, here is an article I just discovered today on CNN.com.  Maybe this can knock some sense into people and help the everyday traveler realize how complex of a system it is they enter every time they fly.

http://www.cnn.com/2...x.html?hpt=Sbin

This article was written by a real airline pilot so it does hold value.

Quote

(CNN) -- "Airspace congestion" is routinely cited as the cause of air travel delays, particularly in the busy, storm-prone summer months.

It's important for a frequent flier to understand how traffic piles up, even when the sun is shining and the weather overhead looks great.

More often than not, airspace congestion is tied to airports in and around New York. Other major airports in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Atlanta, Georgia; and Chicago, Illinois, are also sensitive to congestion. But when the weather is foul, any airport can be affected.

In the greater New York area, three major airports, LaGuardia, JFK and Newark International, all within a 25-mile diameter circle, land and depart hundreds of flights per day. With this many flights, it's crucial to have an organized system of filtering arrivals and departures from each airport at a safe distance.

The system consists of standardized routes that aircraft use to keep out of each other's way, similar to highway on-ramps and exits. In the sky, since there's no pavement to follow, on-ramps and exits are defined by coordinates.
Congestion arises when aircraft from multiple airports are headed in a similar direction. When a flight from Newark departing for Denver, Colorado, a flight from LaGuardia departing for Phoenix, Arizona, and a flight from JFK departing for Los Angeles, California, all head west, it's important to allow enough space between aircraft so they don't arrive at
the same coordinate at the same time.

If traffic is light, it's business as usual for air traffic control. But when many flights are headed in the same direction from multiple airports, aircraft may be held on the ground to provide enough spacing. The result for passengers? A tarmac delay.

Departure delays can also occur when many aircraft are trying to depart the same runway. Since airlines generally run large "banks" of flights that arrive at the same time, allowing passengers to connect to flights that will depart at the same time, there can be a long line for take-off.

Most of the time departure bank delays are built into your travel itinerary. It may be a 30-minute flight from New York to Boston, but your ticket may say one hour to account for time on the ground.

Aircraft are also arriving from all directions, and they not only have to be separated from each other, but also from aircraft departing the airport, adding to congestion.

Although many airports have multiple runways, bad weather or runway closures can snarl traffic. If there are 50 flights per hour scheduled to arrive, but the airport can only handle 40 arrivals per hour, someone's going to be delayed.

So which flights get priority for departing on time? That decision often is left to the airlines themselves. The FAA may say 40 flights are allowed per hour, but the airline will decide which flights will be on time. Usually arrivals from overseas will be prioritized, followed by transcontinental flights, then finally the closer-in "regional" flights. This is subject to change, but is the general rule of thumb.

In the summer, departure and arrival routes can quickly become blocked by thunderstorms, usually in the afternoon. And the weather does not necessarily have to be near the airport -- storms between airports can cause backups as well.

If a thunderstorm is blocking a major route, pilots and air traffic control must navigate around the weather. With so many flights arriving and departing in all directions, the storm is similar to a disabled vehicle on a highway causing a traffic jam because everyone's trying to merge into a new lane.

But even without storms, flights can be delayed if "bumper to bumper" aircraft force air traffic control to slow the pace of traffic. Until the traffic jam is eased, your flight will be held on the ground awaiting an open spot on your route.

The best way to avoid delays is to travel early in the morning, as the weather is usually calmer and the traffic is lightest. If you find yourself delayed, chances are that your connecting flight will also be late because of a ripple effect. The more severe the congestion, the more likely flights from other cities will also be delayed. If your connecting flight is on one of those aircraft, clearly you have a fighting chance to make your connection.

But frequently, connection times are not long enough to absorb delays. Pay attention to the layover time between connecting flights as you purchase your ticket. A 30-minute layover to connect to another flight is very challenging at larger airports -- an hour is better.

And watch the weather; if you can avoid forecasted storms by changing your flight, give it a shot. Many airlines have mobile websites that allow you to check a flight's status, so you are that much more in tune with the bigger picture.

Just thought I'd share.

[7-5-7]

.Andrew, on Jul 15 2010, 12:00 AM, said:

That sucks and is unfair.

But I mean when an aircraft is too heavy and you need to get people off, what else can you do?

Not overbook the flight...

[LA_PHX]

7-5-7, on Jul 16 2010, 07:47 AM, said:

.Andrew, on Jul 15 2010, 12:00 AM, said:

That sucks and is unfair.

But I mean when an aircraft is too heavy and you need to get people off, what else can you do?

Not overbook the flight...

As said before in this thread, airlines routinely book flights to account for the almost certain no-shows or people who change their flight last minute.  Airlines make the most money when their planes are flying full so that is a way to keep them full.  I remember there was one airline that actually stated in an official manner that they didn't overbook flights but I don't remember who it was.  All the others, well, you can expect that they are overbooking most of their flights.  And it usually isn't a problem as there usually are people who don't arrive for the flight.  If everyone shows, then they start looking for volunteers and if it isn't a high number of people (it usually isn't), then they can usually entice people with travel vouchers and/or food vouchers, etc. to switch to a later flight.

Like I said, it usually isn't  a problem.  Sometimes, it unfortunately is.  ie. If anyone remembers the show Airline that followed around Southwest Airlines...one episodes showed how one flight from Chicago to Florida was overbooked by 50 people!  The worst part for Southwest is some of those people had cruises to catch and they weren't going to make it.  But unfortunately for the consumer, Southwest and all airlines are protected by their contract-of-carriage (as Nick Wilkinson mentioned earlier) and that a consumer should know these possibility if they do, in fact, read the contract.

[LA_PHX]

I know I'm bringing up a dying topic but I thought Wampa, you might like it.

Here is a recent tweet that popped up on my feed since I follow United for their sales.

Quote

I like that the gate agent for my @UnitedAirlines flight saw army fatigues & announced active military could board at anytime. Bravo.

I figured since you seem to be always interested in the military, you might especially appreciate it.