75 replies to this topic

[clum]

OK fair enough, it just looks like you stated that you hit the water at the same speed, regardless of the distance of fall. Misunderstanding.

[aviatordom]

More photos from the BEA; the remains of an engine and some of the avionics. Very interesting to see:
http://www.pprune.or...e-part2-51.html

Edited by aviatordom, 11 May 2011 - 07:24 AM.

[LA_PHX]

Update: Data intact and to be analyzed.

http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=T2

[Independence76]

2 hours of voice communication and 25 hours of flight data.

I couldn't have asked for more. Excellent job by the BEA and Honeywell.

[162db]

Aharon, on May 2 2011, 06:26 PM, said:

All talk about people rather to pick dropping onto water over ground reminds me of famous diving cliff with popular bar in Negril, Jamaica. I forgot the name of the famous bar with famous diving cliffs.

If you do not dive properly off the famous cliff, you will wind up in hospital with black and blue all over your body. I am talking about hitting clear water without any rocky shores around.

According to instructions, when you dive off high cliff in Negril, Jamaica, you are supposed to dive standing straight up and let your feet hit water first.  Some lady from my hotel made mistake diving off the cliff in wrong way. She thought landing her butt on water was the safest and best way.  Nope  Next day, her butt was all black and blue.  Luckily for her, she did not need to go to hospital but she was butt of jokes in the hotel for rest of the week.

Aharon

I dove off of there, well more like jumped. There was a huge line of people but we got lucky because every one was scared to go due to some girl getting injured and thus let us go ahead of them. One of my brothers did a swan dive (he used to be a pro diver) my other bro tried to imitate him but failed miserably, landing not quite straight. He didn't sustain any injuries, it was funny though and we still have pictures of it. I just closed my eyes, ran as fast as I could and jumped off. I wanted to make sure I was clear of the rocks lol. Some of the local kids climbed this tall tree that's up there and jumped off one of the higher branches. I just thought to myself those kids are crazy.

[Pierre.]

Heres a first report:
http://www.bea.aero/...7mai2011.en.pdf

Quite scary to read, -10,912ft and 16.2 nose-up  

[Cactus]

If you've ever stalled the PSS A340 in FS2004.... it kinda has a similar outcome in terms of attitude and vertical speed. Just sayin'

Edited by Duke, 27 May 2011 - 09:18 AM.

[pyruvate]

Duke, on May 27 2011, 07:17 AM, said:

If you've ever stalled the PSS A340 in FS2004.... it kinda has a similar outcome in terms of attitude and vertical speed. Just sayin'

If your name and avatar wasn't there, I would think this is Ahron.

Edited by pyruvate, 27 May 2011 - 01:15 PM.

[Cactus]

pyruvate, on May 27 2011, 02:14 PM, said:

If your name and avatar wasn't there, I would think this is Ahron.

Stall recovery in (relatively) level flight is a fairly basic maneuver that any pilot should understand. FS models this fairly accurately. AF447, Colgan 3407 are both examples. Although AF447 would have been compounded by environmental and technological factors, there are similarities in terms of the flight crew manual handling aspect.

[Mumbles]

That's wild!

RIP

[jetblast787]

This makes me sooo angry

http://www.theaustra...x-1226064924740

[LA_PHX]

Quote

Doerr said he doubted that American pilots, who typically come from military backgrounds, would have been overwhelmed.

Oh, I guess Colgan 3407 never happened...

[Gunfighter]

I hate to play devil's advocate here, and RIP to everyone on board, but at FL370, with a thunderstorm in the air, the airflow over the wings certainly wouldn t be the density and pressure expierenced at low altitudes. There's certain limits to which an aircraft can bank and turn at those altitudes, and from what the report says, they lost complete airflow over the wings. It doesn't sound like a flat spin, but, if the earlier reports were correct about their pitot tubes, and there's conflicting information between the pilots, well no wonder it went to h e l l in a handbag. Its a sad story, and its definitely a terrible tragedy.

Ill say it again:
"Learn from the mistakes of others, as you will not live long enough to make all of them yourself"

[Jambone]

Gunfighter, on Jun 27 2011, 11:22 PM, said:

I hate to play devil's advocate here, and RIP to everyone on board, but at FL370, with a thunderstorm in the air, the airflow over the wings certainly wouldn t be the density and pressure expierenced at low altitudes. There's certain limits to which an aircraft can bank and turn at those altitudes, and from what the report says, they lost complete airflow over the wings. It doesn't sound like a flat spin, but, if the earlier reports were correct about their pitot tubes, and there's conflicting information between the pilots, well no wonder it went to h e l l in a handbag. Its a sad story, and its definitely a terrible tragedy.

Ill say it again:
"Learn from the mistakes of others, as you will not live long enough to make all of them yourself"

Pitot Schmitot... just because you don't know how fast you're flying isn't reason enough to stall it. If you've got your ADI you sure as better know that you don't pull up to 10 degrees. I'd rather be in a plane that flew overspeed through rough weather than one that plummeted into the ocean, it doesn't take Einstein to work out which one has the higher survival rate..

In the words of that Little Rock pilot, who crashed, incidentally: "I hate droning around visual at night in weather without having some clue where I am", perhaps altering "visual" and suffixing "without any modicum of common sense".

Quote

The thrust levers were positioned in the TO/GA detent and the PF maintained nose-up inputs. The recorded angle of attack, of around 6 degrees at the triggering of the stall warning, continued to increase. The trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS) passed from 3 to 13 degrees nose-up in about 1 minute and remained in the latter position until the end of the flight.

Says it all.

I mean no offence, truly I don't. But when did basic common sense become an optional requirement, deemed so by over-reliance on instrument readings?

[Cactus]

Wow. This article is trash.

What a classy quote from Mr. Doerr. Way to uphold the professional reputation of your fellow pilots. The guy can't even defend himself because he is DEAD, yet Doerr feels the need to bash him.

Also, the journalist recites various "online criticism" including quotes from a "former Wall Street analyst". Why exactly a Wall Street analyst would be quoted in an aviation article is beyond me. It does nothing to advance this article other than to prove beyond reason it is a steaming piece of journalistic turd.

[Mumbles]

LA_PHX, on Jun 27 2011, 02:49 PM, said:

Oh, I guess Colgan 3407 never happened...

They didn't come from a military background, like mentioned...


Sully was in the Air Force and he managed to make one of a landing. On water. With out both engines.

I'm in no way saying that military pilots handle situations better than civilian pilots, I'm just making point that Colgan was flown by civilians and it crashed since you brought it up in reply to a comment specifically mentioning military pilots.

[LA_PHX]

Mumbles, on Jun 27 2011, 05:18 PM, said:

They didn't come from a military background, like mentioned...
Sully was in the Air Force and he managed to make one of a landing. On water. With out both engines.

I'm in no way saying that military pilots handle situations better than civilian pilots, I'm just making point that Colgan was flown by civilians and it crashed since you brought it up in reply to a comment specifically mentioning military pilots.

The guy was making this into an America vs. Europe thing.  He was saying the "European way" leads to this kind of poor piloting and the "American way" doesn't.  That is completely false.  And showing me one example of a former military pilot does nothing to support the point.  There are numerous incidents where military pilots have made stupid moves.

For the record though, I'm not saying military pilots don't receive better training.  That may very well be true.  But his point, and as Duke mentioned, attacking a dead crew, is classless and idiotic.

[SwitchFX]

Why are you people surprised at that ripe crap? It's The Australian, it's notorious for bull articles. Want to know why? It's owned by News Limited, which so happens to be owned by News Corporation. Do you know who the owner of News Corporation is? Or one of their companies?

[THBatMan8]

Mumbles, on Jun 27 2011, 06:18 PM, said:

Sully was in the Air Force and he managed to make one of a landing. On water. With out both engines.

Sully got lucky. The weather was clear, so the water was glass and visibility was high. He was also lucky that there weren't any boats in his way. Any commercial pilot should be able to ditch a plane in that situation. Put Sully in AF441 and he wouldn't perform any better than the crew did.

Jambone, on Jun 27 2011, 04:42 PM, said:

Pitot Schmitot... just because you don't know how fast you're flying isn't reason enough to stall it.

You can stall a aircraft at any speed. Without the pitot and INS, you have no HSI. Without a HSI, flying at night, through a t-storm, you aren't going to know which way is up and which way is down. By the time you realise where you are, it's too late to make corrections.

Edited by THBatMan8, 27 June 2011 - 11:14 PM.

[Gunfighter]

Jambone, on Jun 27 2011, 03:42 PM, said:

I mean no offence, truly I don't. But when did basic common sense become an optional requirement, deemed so by over-reliance on instrument readings?

Simple, why are instruments so important?
When your aircraft consists of nothing but computers computers computers, fly by wire, and technology. Im not saying that Airbus is by anymeans a piece of junk, but there is a lot of technology on it, etc...nor that an actual standby cable system of sorts would have saved the plane. But when the pilots rely so much on the instruments and computers on those things, especially flying over the Atlantic from Rio De (this isn t some local hop for a 100 dollar burger, this is crossing thousands of miles of open ocean)...then your instruments and computers play a role. When you are flying into a thunderstorm, I d certainly fly on instruments...whose to say they had any visible reference outside, at night, in clouds of upwards of FL500?