67 replies to this topic

[CaptainG37]

And it's default scenery for xp10, too...

[Daube]

Are you kidding ? Mountains and valleys painted with the same single texture ?
Oh wait, you were being sarcastic, right ? Sorry I didn't understand at first.

[CaptainG37]

Daube, on Sep 8 2011, 09:22 AM, said:

Are you kidding ? Mountains and valleys painted with the same single texture ?
Oh wait, you were being sarcastic, right ? Sorry I didn't understand at first.

Look closer.
Oh, I'm sorry.  You're used to FSX.  You don't look at certain things.
You don't see what I see.

(Let's keep the sarcastic comments to a minimum, huh?)


I'm not talking about the texture.  I'm talking about the shaders.
Perhaps this might help.
http://www.x-plane.com/blog/

Edited by CaptainG37, 07 September 2011 - 06:31 PM.

[AirX]

Daube, on Sep 7 2011, 07:22 PM, said:

Are you kidding ? Mountains and valleys painted with the same single texture ?
Oh wait, you were being sarcastic, right ? Sorry I didn't understand at first.

  ... I think we all see the obvious.

[CaptainG37]

For those of you who are genuinely curious and interested, notice the very subtle fog layer that increases the further away you look towards the horizon.

Edited by CaptainG37, 07 September 2011 - 07:15 PM.

[CaptainG37]

Here's some default airport scenery (emphasizing the lighting.)
Nothing in particular to look for.

[CaptainG37]

Maybe another one at dusk?
Notice the terrain LOD in the background.
As usual, X Plane 10 will also have runways that follow the terrain, just as it did in V9, with an option to turn it off.

[Daube]

CaptainG37, on Sep 7 2011, 06:27 PM, said:

Look closer.
Oh, I'm sorry.  You're used to FSX.  You don't look at certain things.
You don't see what I see.

(Let's keep the sarcastic comments to a minimum, huh?)


I'm not talking about the texture.  I'm talking about the shaders.
Perhaps this might help.
http://www.x-plane.com/blog/

Well I'm open to any explanation
In this shot I fail to see what is the exceptional feature. Since you mentionned "terrain" in the title, I was focusing on the mesh quality. Perhaps I should have been looking at something else ?  

[CaptainG37]

Daube, on Sep 8 2011, 09:29 PM, said:

Well I'm open to any explanation
In this shot I fail to see what is the exceptional feature. Since you mentionned "terrain" in the title, I was focusing on the mesh quality. Perhaps I should have been looking at something else ?  

I didn't say "terrain" in the title or the post.
I said scenery.  For me, scenery is the whole "picture".  Sky.  Mountains.  Lighting.  And that subtle "moisture" hanging in the air.  If you look in the details at the bottom of the screenshot, you can see among the various values, that HDR lighting is coming to X Plane 10.  
I have never see FS9 or FSX depict moisture in the air as nicely as this.  Not even with ActiveSky (unless I'm missing something because I have had Activesky, up to ASX, since it first came out).  X Plane 9 has it as well, but it doesn't render it that well.  

I wish I could explain more of it but the details are still under wraps.

[ChaoticBeauty]

CaptainG37, on Sep 8 2011, 02:52 PM, said:

I didn't say "terrain" in the title or the post.
I said scenery.  For me, scenery is the whole "picture".  Sky.  Mountains.  Lighting.  And that subtle "moisture" hanging in the air.  If you look in the details at the bottom of the screenshot, you can see among the various values, that HDR lighting is coming to X Plane 10.  
I have never see FS9 or FSX depict moisture in the air as nicely as this.  Not even with ActiveSky (unless I'm missing something because I have had Activesky, up to ASX, since it first came out).  X Plane 9 has it as well, but it doesn't render it that well.  

I wish I could explain more of it but the details are still under wraps.

I'm sorry, but scenery is just the mountains and land. If you think the scenery is the whole picture, that's what you think, but that does not mean that it actually is.

The scenery itself is unimpressive. About the fog, I think Microsoft Fight has some if you look at the latest webisode.

[CaptainG37]

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 10:13 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but scenery is just the mountains and land. If you think the scenery is the whole picture, that's what you think, but that does not mean that it actually is.

The scenery itself is unimpressive. About the fog, I think Microsoft Fight has some if you look at the latest webisode.

Definition of scenery...
"A picturesque view or landscape"

I'll be sure to tell Martin at FlyTampa your thoughts on what scenery is.

FlyTampa's Kai Tak has moving ships, fireworks, night time lights, etc... All considered part of the scenery.
All that was made by the FlyTampa team.  I don't think they would appreciate it if their work was limited by the end user as just "mountains and land".

Please, don't just THINK Flight has that kind of fog.  Dig up a screenshot or two and show us if it indeed does have it.  I dug up THIS screenshot of x plane.  I don't think it's appropriate I go do the same for Flight as well.  I don't think I saw fog in Flight, but I could be wrong.

The whole point of my original post was to show the shaders and how they interact with the terrain.
I didn't know I would get flamed for it.

I'm also interested if you found the other 2 screenshots I posted "impressive".

Edited by CaptainG37, 08 September 2011 - 07:26 AM.

[ChaoticBeauty]

CaptainG37, on Sep 8 2011, 03:22 PM, said:

Definition of scenery...
"A picturesque view or landscape"

I'll be sure to tell Martin at FlyTampa your thoughts on what scenery is.

FlyTampa's Kai Tak has moving ships, fireworks, night time lights, etc... All considered part of the scenery.
All that was made by the FlyTampa team.  I don't think they would appreciate it if their work was limited by the end user as just "mountains and land".

Please, don't just THINK Flight has that kind of fog.  Dig up a screenshot or two and show us if it indeed does have it.  I dug up THIS screenshot of x plane.  I don't think it's appropriate I go do the same for Flight as well.  I don't think I saw fog in Flight, but I could be wrong.

The whole point of my original post was to show the shaders and how they interact with the terrain.
I didn't know I would get flamed for it.

You don't even know if Flight has fog or not. Why do you compare it with X-plane 10 then?

Want to compare it with FSX? Use X-Plane 9 instead.

EDIT: Also I don't give a what "FlyTampa" will think of me. I don't use their products and they cannot do anything to me.

Edited by Kaotika, 08 September 2011 - 07:27 AM.

[CaptainG37]

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 10:25 PM, said:

You don't even know if Flight has fog or not. Why do you compare it with X-plane 10 then?

You're right.  But neither do you.  That's why I asked you to dig one up.

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 10:25 PM, said:

Want to compare it with FSX? Use X-Plane 9 instead.

X Plane 9 has gradual fog as well.  Just not as refined as XP10.  

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 10:25 PM, said:

EDIT: Also I don't give a what "FlyTampa" will think of me. I don't use their products and they cannot do anything to me.

I never thought they WOULD think anything of you or do anything TO you.  You're the one dictating what constitutes scenery.  I have many flytampa products.  As well as Aerosoft scenery.  Two very successful FS companies who have put out award winning scenery.  
Could you please give me a link to show me what scenery you have done...seeing as though you seem to be an authority on the subject.  Obviously, it would just be "Mountains and Land", but I'm still interested, nevertheless.

Daube, on Sep 8 2011, 09:29 PM, said:

Well I'm open to any explanation
In this shot I fail to see what is the exceptional feature. Since you mentionned "terrain" in the title, I was focusing on the mesh quality. Perhaps I should have been looking at something else ?  

Just to elaborate, if you're interested, there is a lot of info on what is going on with scenery on the x plane blog (the link I gave).  It's nice to see you appear to have an open mind on the subject.  If anything, it makes for very interesting reading.

[Daube]

CaptainG37, on Sep 8 2011, 06:52 AM, said:

I didn't say "terrain" in the title or the post.

Indeed, my mistake, I misread.

Quote

I said scenery.  For me, scenery is the whole "picture".  Sky.  Mountains.  Lighting.  And that subtle "moisture" hanging in the air.

Ok for the moisture (fog) effect which looks quite good, I have to say. But that's pretty much it, the rest of the "scenery" is nothing special at all, for now.
I'm fully aware of the new lighting and shadowing system in XPlane as shown in some screenshots already, and THAT is impressive, definitely. But on this specific shot, I don't see anything impressive.
The landclass is... well, there's not landclass at all, all the terrain is using more or less the same texture.
The mesh has nothing exceptionnal as well in terms of resolution, and the mountains still look as simple (non-smoothed "pyramids" with clearly visible 3D edges) as they were in XPlane 9.
The sky looks normal as well, even if those distant clouds add a nice touch.

Quote

If you look in the details at the bottom of the screenshot, you can see among the various values, that HDR lighting is coming to X Plane 10.

That's a good point.

Quote

I have never see FS9 or FSX depict moisture in the air as nicely as this.  Not even with ActiveSky (unless I'm missing something because I have had Activesky, up to ASX, since it first came out).  X Plane 9 has it as well, but it doesn't render it that well.

Well, the fog effect in FS9 and FSX is pretty limited. It looks good as long as you are INTO it. As soon as you get above the visibility layer, it looks like crap, a white (cirrus) texture cutting through the mountains. :/

CaptainG37, on Sep 8 2011, 07:22 AM, said:

Please, don't just THINK Flight has that kind of fog.  Dig up a screenshot or two and show us if it indeed does have it.  I dug up THIS screenshot of x plane.  I don't think it's appropriate I go do the same for Flight as well.  I don't think I saw fog in Flight, but I could be wrong.

There's not much visible in Flight screenshots yet.
The only things we could recognize is that Flight might have a similar lighting/shadowing system as XPlane10, since we could see in one of the videos that the scenery could cast shadow on the plane. Same for scenery objects and autogen, the objects that will be in the shadow will no longer be illuminated by the sun. It was about time
But that's all we could see for the moment :/

Quote

The whole point of my original post was to show the shaders and how they interact with the terrain.
I didn't know I would get flamed for it.

Flamed ? No, I was just asking for clarification. You presented the shot as something extremely positive, but I could not see what was so positive in it when I saw it, thus I asked for explanations.

Quote

I'm also interested if you found the other 2 screenshots I posted "impressive".

Same conclusion as before: the lighting system looks cooler and cooler, same for the airport details. But the surrounding terrain is not really convincing. Especially on the day shot, the mountain edges are not smoothed, giving quite an unrealistic look to the terrain, I really don't like that rendering. :/

[ChaoticBeauty]

CaptainG37, on Sep 8 2011, 03:45 PM, said:

I never thought they WOULD think anything of you or do anything TO you.  You're the one dictating what constitutes scenery.  I have many flytampa products.  As well as Aerosoft scenery.  Two very successful FS companies who have put out award winning scenery.  
Could you please give me a link to show me what scenery you have done...seeing as though you seem to be an authority on the subject.  Obviously, it would just be "Mountains and Land", but I'm still interested, nevertheless.

You're doing the same thing, you're dictating what scenery is.

All the scenery products I've seen only change the land and even the FSX scenery settings only change the land (except for the extremely minor special effects). Now I don't know what X-Plane considers as scenery so I apologise if X-Plane dictates scenery as the whole picture.

I have not made any scenery, I only consider the land as scenery because that's what all scenery add-ons I've seen and FSX do. I didn't criticise FlyTampa's and Aerosoft's products either.

[CaptainG37]

A lot to reply to so I'll condense it.  (I'm in the middle of making 3 add ons atm)
After 10 years of flying in FS (from FS98 to FSX) I was very used to seeing crap fog.  I don't fly in x plane that much because I'm always working, but when I saw the shaders for XP10, I got a little bit excited.
That Kaotika guy was "flaming" me.  Insecurites?  perhaps.  I hope not, though.

I have to disagree with you on the terrain.  I like the look of the mountains.  As a matter of fact, I haven't seen smooth, large mountains in photos and books of the real thing.  They always have jagged rocks and edges.  Even FSGlobal has fixed this in their terrain LOD for FS9.  X Plane uses real world data for their terrain.  Obviously it isn't 100%, pinpoint accurate (that would take 5 times the data than the 65GB it already has of terrain.) but I think it does a of a good job.

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 11:06 PM, said:

You're doing the same thing, you're dictating what scenery is.

I looked it up and gave you the official definition.

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 11:06 PM, said:

All the scenery products I've seen only change the land and even the FSX scenery settings only change the land (except for the extremely minor special effects). Now I don't know what X-Plane considers as scenery so I apologise if X-Plane dictates scenery as the whole picture.

What about airport scenery?  What would you consider to be the elements in that?

[_BD6_]

first shot is impressive.. seamless transition of fog thickness! Looking forward to what X-Plane10 brings to the table versus MS Flight.

[ChaoticBeauty]

That's why the scenery looks unimpressive to me. It's too smooth and only has a repeated texture.

And no, I wasn't flaming you. And speak directly to me, don't just say "that Kaotika guy was flaming me" like you're trying to make someone sympathise for you and help you.

[_BD6_]

Flight's going to have repeated textures too, your point? You expect them to make different textures for each square foot for the whole world?

[CaptainG37]

Kaotika, on Sep 8 2011, 11:43 PM, said:

That's why the scenery looks unimpressive to me. It's too smooth and only has a repeated texture.

And no, I wasn't flaming you. And speak directly to me, don't just say "that Kaotika guy was flaming me" like you're trying to make someone sympathise for you and help you.

Dude, relax.
I was correcting Daube because he thought I was referring to him about the "flaming".
TBH, it doesn't really bother me.  Flame away.
And I certainly don't need sympathy.  If you find it unimpressive, that's fine.  You have spoken your mind.  You still haven't mentioned the other 2, though.
I think it's safe to say you find those unimpressive as well.