73 replies to this topic

[_TW_]

Couldn't agree with you more FL050

[Gym_Class_Hero]

FL050, on Oct 20 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

Flying_Pie, on Oct 19 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Seriously, if you can get a flying job at a good base, and flying your dream-plane, why not take it?

Because eventually, believe it or not, your life will come when one day you have bills to pay and a family to raise and care for.  The end of the month will come when you have bills of $5,000 for that month, and you look at your paycheck from flying that pretty DC-10 and it comes out to $4,800, it makes you start to wonder just how "amazing" that job really is.

Like others have said, you doing something enough (i.e. flying), it will become a job just like anything else, and you will expect to be paid for the services you provide - as well you should.

I've been saying it for years on this forum, and everytime I bring it up everyone thinks I am "trying to discourage people from being pilots", and what do you do know: pilot pay comes up to question in the public and now everyone is starting to see the light.

I don't plan on getting married/start a family until later in my flying career, when I build up some seniority and can spend time with them and actually be an active part of their life. I've heard the divorce rate is pretty high among pilots. I'll just be casual until then. (Giggity giggity )

There's a reason why smaller airlines like this tend to hire lower-time guys. They know that most tend to be single people getting out of college and looking for a first job, and $4800 a month isn't so bad for a bachelor(ette). Of course when I get larger amounts of time I'll look to upgrade to a little bigger airline, like Alaska or Virgin America, I'm just not sure how probably a career with one of the big-5 is in my future. Sure, if they would hire me, of course I would take it, it's an incredible opportunity. However, I'm not going to consider it the end of the world if they don't.

Edited by Gym_Class_Hero, 20 October 2009 - 08:04 PM.

[Flying_Pie]

FL050, on Oct 20 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

Flying_Pie, on Oct 19 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Seriously, if you can get a flying job at a good base, and flying your dream-plane, why not take it?

Clarification: that wasn't me.

[THBatMan8]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 20 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

I don't plan on getting married/start a family until later in my flying career, when I build up some seniority and can spend time with them and actually be an active part of their life. I've heard the divorce rate is pretty high among pilots. I'll just be casual until then. (Giggity giggity )

There's a reason why smaller airlines like this tend to hire lower-time guys. They know that most tend to be single people getting out of college and looking for a first job, and $4800 a month isn't so bad for a bachelor(ette). Of course when I get larger amounts of time I'll look to upgrade to a little bigger airline, like Alaska or Virgin America, I'm just not sure how probably a career with one of the big-5 is in my future. Sure, if they would hire me, of course I would take it, it's an incredible opportunity. However, I'm not going to consider it the end of the world if they don't.

Because you'll never be home. You'll need to compensate for the low pay somehow. 5k monthly may seem like alot now, but when you're 100+k in debt from student loans, it's not possible to pay off the loans and pay other bills you'll have.

Edited by THBatMan8, 21 October 2009 - 04:56 AM.

[Gym_Class_Hero]

THBatMan8, on Oct 21 2009, 04:55 AM, said:

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 20 2009, 08:57 PM, said:

I don't plan on getting married/start a family until later in my flying career, when I build up some seniority and can spend time with them and actually be an active part of their life. I've heard the divorce rate is pretty high among pilots. I'll just be casual until then. (Giggity giggity )

There's a reason why smaller airlines like this tend to hire lower-time guys. They know that most tend to be single people getting out of college and looking for a first job, and $4800 a month isn't so bad for a bachelor(ette). Of course when I get larger amounts of time I'll look to upgrade to a little bigger airline, like Alaska or Virgin America, I'm just not sure how probably a career with one of the big-5 is in my future. Sure, if they would hire me, of course I would take it, it's an incredible opportunity. However, I'm not going to consider it the end of the world if they don't.

Because you'll never be home. You'll need to compensate for the low pay somehow. 5k monthly may seem like alot now, but when you're 100+k in debt from student loans, it's not possible to pay off the loans and pay other bills you'll have.

NOBODY makes a lot right out of school - pilots, teachers, anybody! A few hard years right out of school is the reality for everyone, not just pilots. Everyone is frugal and has to make a few sacrifices right out of school, it's a fact of life. If pilot's can't afford to get a flying job out of school, how do we have regional airlines?

And BTW the rest of the family has been considering a move to Canada for a while already. So there's a good chance that if I move to Canada, I won't be alone...

Edited by Gym_Class_Hero, 21 October 2009 - 04:07 PM.

[FL050]

Quote

NOBODY makes a lot right out of school - pilots, teachers, anybody! A few hard years right out of school is the reality for everyone, not just pilots. Everyone is frugal and has to make a few sacrifices right out of school, it's a fact of life. If pilot's can't afford to get a flying job out of school, how do we have regional airlines?

You are right, they don't, and it is very realistic for you to think you'll never even be looked at by a major - because that is what happens in the real world.

But here is a situation for you:

You are 45-50 years old, hopefully at a major, and banking probably around 70-80k a year and flying is the only thing you've done right out of college (hoping you went to college), and you get furloughed from your airline - for whatever reason.  What are you going to do?

At this point in your life you are married and with a kid or 2 - what are you going to do to support your family?  You don't have any experience at all except to fly an airplane, and in no way shape or form will that translate to a job outside of aviation that could even compare to the pay you were making before you got furloughed.

You want the answer?  Just like around at pilots in the industry today.  Furloughed / laid-off pilots are 45-50 year old Captains from regionals, majors or corporate, and working at McDonalds or Wal-Mart because flying is the only thing they ever knew how to do.

The only HUGE negative thing about flying is that it gives you absolutely no experience to go out and get a decent living after being forced to retire of laid-off - unlike a business degree where any and every company is experience on your resume to get a better job.  Sure, flying is like that too, but you can only fly for so long - and there is the downfall.

[Gym_Class_Hero]

I'm obviously going to get a degree to fall back on (either Aeronauticle design or history, on WAY different ends of the spectrum ).

[Alaska_MD-83]

.

Edited by Da_KGB, 21 October 2009 - 08:06 PM.

[THBatMan8]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

NOBODY makes a lot right out of school - pilots, teachers, anybody! A few hard years right out of school is the reality for everyone, not just pilots. Everyone is frugal and has to make a few sacrifices right out of school, it's a fact of life. If pilot's can't afford to get a flying job out of school, how do we have regional airlines?

And BTW the rest of the family has been considering a move to Canada for a while already. So there's a good chance that if I move to Canada, I won't be alone...

Erm, where did I say you would be making alot of money out of school?

The difference between the average teacher, etc is they aren't going to be 120K in the hole because of a integrated ATPL. I'm not trying to discourage you, but bringing up some facts.

[Gym_Class_Hero]

THBatMan8, on Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

NOBODY makes a lot right out of school - pilots, teachers, anybody! A few hard years right out of school is the reality for everyone, not just pilots. Everyone is frugal and has to make a few sacrifices right out of school, it's a fact of life. If pilot's can't afford to get a flying job out of school, how do we have regional airlines?

And BTW the rest of the family has been considering a move to Canada for a while already. So there's a good chance that if I move to Canada, I won't be alone...

Erm, where did I say you would be making alot of money out of school?

The difference between the average teacher, etc is they aren't going to be 120K in the hole because of a integrated ATPL. I'm not trying to discourage you, but bringing up some facts.

I never said you said I would be making a lot out of school. I'm just saying student loans and post-college debt are a fact of life.

Obviously being a pilot must be sustainable somehow. If not, there would be no senior pilots or anything, because everyone would be dropping out as soon as they hit the regionals/freight dogs. Look I KNOW it's not easy to get by at the start, I KNOW I will be living frugally right out of school, but I KNOW flying is my passion, and you guy's passion. I understand all the facts you guys are laying out here, and I accept them, but I'm still willing to do whatever it takes to fly. When you have a goal, you do whatever it takes to reach it.

If you have to live frugally and make sacrifices to live out your dream, would you still do it? If not, then this isn't your real dream.

Edited by Gym_Class_Hero, 21 October 2009 - 08:38 PM.

[THBatMan8]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

THBatMan8, on Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

NOBODY makes a lot right out of school - pilots, teachers, anybody! A few hard years right out of school is the reality for everyone, not just pilots. Everyone is frugal and has to make a few sacrifices right out of school, it's a fact of life. If pilot's can't afford to get a flying job out of school, how do we have regional airlines?

And BTW the rest of the family has been considering a move to Canada for a while already. So there's a good chance that if I move to Canada, I won't be alone...

Erm, where did I say you would be making alot of money out of school?

The difference between the average teacher, etc is they aren't going to be 120K in the hole because of a integrated ATPL. I'm not trying to discourage you, but bringing up some facts.

I never said you said I would be making a lot out of school.

Obviously being a pilot must be sustainable somehow. If not, there would be no senior pilots or anything, because everyone would be dropping out as soon as they hit the regionals. Look I KNOW it's not easy to get by at the start, I KNOW I will be living frugally right out of school, but I KNOW flying is my passion, and you guy's passion.

If you have to live frugally and make sacrifices to live out your dream, would you still do it? If not, then this isn't your real dream.

A handful of people do end up leaving the field because of the low pay. You can literally make more doing construction work than what the average GA pilot makes out of school. The GA pilot would have to work 60+ hours a week to make a comparable profit.

For the second part, no. If working your dream job doesn't pay enough then it will turn into a nightmare. You will have 2nd thoughts about the career choice if you can't pay bills. And all dream jobs will turn into a career with a repetitious routine. I personally love driving but eventually got burned out making it into a career.

Edited by THBatMan8, 21 October 2009 - 08:47 PM.

[Timmeh]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 19 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

I've been reading over SergeBMW's thread, and I keep wondering, what is the obsession with major airlines? Nobody in this industry is doing it for the money anymore (that ship has looooooong sailed...), you do it for passion. So it's not like the majors offer any more benefits than others, the only extra is an ego-boost. Trust me, UAL pilots will confirm that...

I too have once longed to be with the majors (AA, to be exact ), but more and more I find myself shooting more for something smaller, mainly because they tend to fly more classic aircraft. Seriously, why do people about trying to jump through the countless hoops to get to the majors, when they could probably get with something like World, Omni, North American, RIA, etc, more easily. Charters are usually more secure, because the airline only flies the plane when it is ordered and paid for, you're not bleeding money like a scheduled carrier. Smaller scheduled carriers benefit in recessions, because when majors cut routes, these smaller airlines move in and take those routes.

Different strokes for different folks.

And, large airlines won't crumble as easily as small airlines in the current economy.

[Saabdriver]

I agree, I fly a Saab 340 out of South Florida which is a 10 min drive from my house....unless its Spirit or JetBlue hiring and I get based out of KFLL...I am happy where I am at.  Flying is flying, I am getting around 75 hours a month, and home almost every night...I am not with a major but I am VERY happy.  

[TheBearJew]

I think the obsession with the majors stems from it being most peoples first exposure ato flying a as child going on vacation. The first plane ride you took was probably on a major carrier. Although less and less likely in todays age.

Just to be clear. The defenition of a major carrier is one with over 1 billlion in annual sales. It has nothing to do with equipment flown.

The fixation with flying for a major also stems from the fact that the individual is almost entirely blind to any other flying job in the airline industry and assumes everyone is a major airlien pilot.

I think the term 'major" is thrown around without any real regard for the actual defenition. No Jetblue is not a major, Atlas Air Cargo, the largest 747 operator in the world, is not a major airline. Pilot pay at a major is very high. I think a senior captain at UPS makes about $17,000 per month. I haven't seen the latest salary scale. I may be off a little.

The reason major carriers have the pay scales the yhave is because they have been unionized since the 50's and every few years the contract get's ratified and the pay gets better. After 50 + years of negotiating the limit had been reached when combined with other factors usch as small non union LCC's comming into existance. Pilot pay at United was rediculous and was unsustainable and the pilots had to finally accept they couldn't use the union to rape the airline anymore. Just because senior captains can't buy that 7,0000 sq ft home or that 58 ft Rybovich sportfish doesn't mean they don't make a healthy salary anymore.

The problem in the industry is not that senior pilots make a lot less it's the fact that pilots at regionals and nationals aren't getting their fare share. It wasn't too long ago that new hire pilots were paying $18,000 dollars to fly for Continental express. So things have gotten somewhat beter, but not much. Second year FO pay at regionals should be alot higher. Captain salary should also be higher. 15 year captain pay at comair is about 46,000 dollars which really sucks if you want to or have to make a career out if it.

Flying for a major has it's downsides as well. I would never fly for a major.

[Gym_Class_Hero]

So DC8SUPER72, what is your opinion on my plan? Is freight dogging it with someone like Kelowna Flightcraft a viable alternative to the regionals?

[Cactus]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

So DC8SUPER72, what is your opinion on my plan? Is freight dogging it with someone like Kelowna Flightcraft a viable alternative to the regionals?

Good luck with your work permit

[Gym_Class_Hero]

Duke, on Oct 21 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

So DC8SUPER72, what is your opinion on my plan? Is freight dogging it with someone like Kelowna Flightcraft a viable alternative to the regionals?

Good luck with your work permit

Um, you do realize I'm going to be 22-23 by then, right? Or is this some Canadian regulation I don't know about?

Or if it's something funny you picked out of my post, please realize I'm really tired right now.

Edited by Gym_Class_Hero, 21 October 2009 - 11:15 PM.

[as737700]

FL050, on Oct 21 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Quote

NOBODY makes a lot right out of school - pilots, teachers, anybody! A few hard years right out of school is the reality for everyone, not just pilots. Everyone is frugal and has to make a few sacrifices right out of school, it's a fact of life. If pilot's can't afford to get a flying job out of school, how do we have regional airlines?

You are right, they don't, and it is very realistic for you to think you'll never even be looked at by a major - because that is what happens in the real world.

But here is a situation for you:

You are 45-50 years old, hopefully at a major, and banking probably around 70-80k a year and flying is the only thing you've done right out of college (hoping you went to college), and you get furloughed from your airline - for whatever reason.  What are you going to do?

At this point in your life you are married and with a kid or 2 - what are you going to do to support your family?  You don't have any experience at all except to fly an airplane, and in no way shape or form will that translate to a job outside of aviation that could even compare to the pay you were making before you got furloughed.

You want the answer?  Just like around at pilots in the industry today.  Furloughed / laid-off pilots are 45-50 year old Captains from regionals, majors or corporate, and working at McDonalds or Wal-Mart because flying is the only thing they ever knew how to do.

The only HUGE negative thing about flying is that it gives you absolutely no experience to go out and get a decent living after being forced to retire of laid-off - unlike a business degree where any and every company is experience on your resume to get a better job.  Sure, flying is like that too, but you can only fly for so long - and there is the downfall.

My brother and I were talking about this exact same thing today.  He's done nothing but fly planes for the past 20 years and was talking about how he constantly asks himself, "what would I do if I lost my medical?"

[THBatMan8]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Oct 21 2009, 08:59 PM, said:

I'm obviously going to get a degree to fall back on (either Aeronauticle design or history, on WAY different ends of the spectrum ).

Get a CDL, it's cheaper and more expendable.  

[03SVTCobra]

I'd fly a Jetblue ERJ-190 or a Frontier A318 all day long. flying a Caravan for a small Cargo company some day would be fine with me. Just so long as I can say "I've done it, I finally made it."