108 replies to this topic

[TheBearJew]

http://www.examiner....nway-in-Atlanta

[wyoairbus]

you think that runways would be pretty easy to tell from taxi-ways, especially to a pilot of multiple years...

[Cactus]

wyoairbus, on Oct 22 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

you think that runways would be pretty easy to tell from taxi-ways, especially to a pilot of multiple years...

I can see why you might be temped to say that, however some airport layouts cause more confusion than others (especially those with parallel runways and a taxiway inbetween). While I can't speak for Atlanta, Seattle has been a notorious airport for these occurrences. If you see some of the taxiways at Las Vegas, they have a zig-zag pattern painted down the middle in an attempt to mitigate any runway identification issues. (See here).

You might want to also consider environmental factors (low sun on the horizon or glare?) and if perhaps fatigue was involved.

Hard to speculate without knowing the complete story, but if this did infact happen at dusk/night, there's not much else to say - the runway and taxiway lighting is a big indicator, obviously. Also, these incidents traditionally occur when the taxiways are unoccupied, as aircraft holding short or taxiing are another big 'freebie' to help the crews in these circumstances.

Edited by Duke, 22 October 2009 - 10:45 PM.

[TheBearJew]

Especially when taxiway lighting is blue, lack numbers, runway markings, are not aligned with the localizer, and are about 1/2 as wide. Lucklly no one was on the taxiway!

I can't wait to hear the result of this investigation.

P.S. It happened in full darkness @ 6:05 AM EDT

Edited by DC8SUPER72, 22 October 2009 - 10:47 PM.

[Cactus]

After the parallel taxiway was re-paved at YYZ, a number of pilots remarked the taxiway appeared more like a runway than the runway did

It was a significant enough that the airport sent a plane up just to take pics...

[Alaska_MD-83]

Someone made an oops.

[Prancer]

Maybe from a distance, but you'd think once they got closer they'd be able to tell the difference, gun the engines, and go around before they kill someone. To heck with 'minimums' in this case, avoiding human life and property destruction is too important.

Edited by Perriwen, 22 October 2009 - 11:45 PM.

[wyoairbus]

Perriwen, on Oct 23 2009, 12:44 AM, said:

Maybe from a distance, but you'd think once they got closer they'd be able to tell the difference, gun the engines, and go around before they kill someone. To heck with 'minimums' in this case, avoiding human life and property destruction is too important.

you took the words right out of what i was just about to post.

i have no doubt that several airports have very confusing layouts, but when your on finals would there not be an "aha" moment, a realization of "hey captain, this runway looks doesnt look too much like a runway, unlike that strip of pavement over there parallel to us..."

[_NW_]

There's no excuse.  All runways have white lights, you usually see them from a few miles out.  Not to mention ALL of ATL's runways have touchdown marking lights and runway centerline lights..  those are the lights built into the runway.  The only lights on the taxiway are the blue edge lights (usually only visible around a mile out) and the center green light, which I think that taxiway has.

All of the runways into ATL have approach lighting and ILS approaches.  Even in VMC, it's common practice (and possible airline SOP) to tune in the ILS frequency as additional navigation guidance.  No taxiways have approach lighting and no taxiways have an ILS.  

Also being the aircraft involved was a 767, the crew have flown into ATL many times (not to mention every DAL pilot has flown into ATL) they should have been more than familiar with the layout of the airport.

I'm standing right behind DC8..  I'm eager to see the outcome of the investigation

[Brad]

I've flown (a small twin) into ATL, and with all of that concrete if you were heading into the glare of the sun I can maybe see this happening.  In the pitch black of night though, I have no explanation other than perhaps weary pilots.  Scary stuff.

[FL050]

It's called fatigue, ladies and gentlemen.

Airports are much more confusing than you think.

[Cactus]

FL050, on Oct 28 2009, 08:33 PM, said:

It's called fatigue, ladies and gentlemen.

Airports are much more confusing than you think.

Sometimes it's just a lot easier to hang the crew by their balls infront of the terminal building.

[Mohammad]

With all these news circulating the aviation industry, you'd think commercial airline companies might want to consider increasing the pilot's salary so that these mistakes do not happen. People using laptops, others fed up and having no motive for flying, even worse is the fact some might not care if they do mistakes for such a badly-paid job. This is really bad folks. They should be lucky no plane was on the taxiway, otherwise it would've been embarrassing for a nation like the US to have such an airline collision incident.

[Cactus]

moqool, on Oct 28 2009, 11:37 PM, said:

With all these news circulating the aviation industry, you'd think commercial airline companies might want to consider increasing the pilot's salary so that these mistakes do not happen. People using laptops, others fed up and having no motive for flying, even worse is the fact some might not care if they do mistakes for such a badly-paid job. This is really bad folks. They should be lucky no plane was on the taxiway, otherwise it would've been embarrassing for a nation like the US to have such an airline collision incident.

I really have no clue what you are talking about. Do you think these guys were junior pilots?

The only thing increasing the wages for senior pilots will do is inflate their already oversized egos and further bankrupt the airlines.

Your argument is completely invalid.

[THBatMan8]

moqool, on Oct 28 2009, 11:37 PM, said:

With all these news circulating the aviation industry, you'd think commercial airline companies might want to consider increasing the pilot's salary so that these mistakes do not happen. People using laptops, others fed up and having no motive for flying, even worse is the fact some might not care if they do mistakes for such a badly-paid job. This is really bad folks. They should be lucky no plane was on the taxiway, otherwise it would've been embarrassing for a nation like the US to have such an airline collision incident.

Accidents are a part of aviation history and if they weren't, ICAO/FAA, etc wouldn't have written any FAR's. 767 drivers make quite a bit of $$$ also.

And length of time doing a certain job doesn't exclude someone from making a mistake. With that mentality, you're actually more prone to make a mistake.

Edited by THBatMan8, 29 October 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[FL050]

moqool, on Oct 28 2009, 11:37 PM, said:

With all these news circulating the aviation industry, you'd think commercial airline companies might want to consider increasing the pilot's salary so that these mistakes do not happen. People using laptops, others fed up and having no motive for flying, even worse is the fact some might not care if they do mistakes for such a badly-paid job. This is really bad folks. They should be lucky no plane was on the taxiway, otherwise it would've been embarrassing for a nation like the US to have such an airline collision incident.

Let me guess, you're an advocate of the House bill requiring all airline pilots to have ATP ratings?

[Mohammad]

^Let me guess, you immediately assumed I was American and know the ins and outs of their political garbage?

===

Duke and Bat Man: All I meant was, when there is a financial system that rewards pilots the amount they deserve, it will be good for everyone. And besides that point is the fact they can penalize them, money-wise, if something goes wrong. It will keep them more alert, less distracted from other things, and maybe psychologically more satisfied with their work. Sometimes these mistakes happen too frequently when people lose the motive of working. This is part of our global economic system, its reality. Its just when a doctor in hospital makes more surgical mistakes while working at a government health centre compared to someone else benefiting in a private, company-based clinic. I hope it makes sense but I can already see you disagree.

[THBatMan8]

moqool, on Oct 29 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

^Let me guess, you immediately assumed I was American and know the ins and outs of their political garbage?

===

Duke and Bat Man: All I meant was, when there is a financial system that rewards pilots the amount they deserve, it will be good for everyone. And besides that point is the fact they can penalize them, money-wise, if something goes wrong. It will keep them more alert, less distracted from other things, and maybe psychologically more satisfied with their work. Sometimes these mistakes happen too frequently when people lose the motive of working. This is part of our global economic system, its reality. Its just when a doctor in hospital makes more surgical mistakes while working at a government health centre compared to someone else benefiting in a private, company-based clinic. I hope it makes sense but I can already see you disagree.

There is already enough motive for a airline pilot to not want to make a mistake as when they screw up bad enough, they earn a slot on the news.

[Cactus]

moqool, on Oct 29 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

when there is a financial system that rewards pilots the amount they deserve, it will be good for everyone. And besides that point is the fact they can penalize them, money-wise, if something goes wrong. It will keep them more alert, less distracted from other things, and maybe psychologically more satisfied with their work. Sometimes these mistakes happen too frequently when people lose the motive of working. This is part of our global economic system, its reality. Its just when a doctor in hospital makes more surgical mistakes while working at a government health centre compared to someone else benefiting in a private, company-based clinic. I hope it makes sense but I can already see you disagree.

If a pilot lost the motive of working, he or she wouldn't be conducting perpetual ongoing Medicals, Line‐Oriented Flight Training, Sim Evaluations, Annual Recurrent Training, so on and so-forth. Can you imagine how many of these checks and examinations a pilot must undergo in his/her career before becoming a long-haul wide-body pilot for a major North American carrier? The "money" factor has nothing to do with HFACS and pilot fatigue at all. If I stay up all night, I'm not going to become magically more alert at work just because they pay me more. I dare you to find an example of a Commercial Pilot that has intentionally violated rules due to disregard of their duties relating to pay or motivation.

If you screw up in aviation, you're dead, and so are your passengers. Do you really think money has a higher self-interest than that?

I wouldn't necessarily perform more accurate and intricate work just because I get paid more. The ultimate goal in this field is to make as few errors as possible, and make corrective action when needed.

Edited by Duke, 29 October 2009 - 05:42 PM.

[Mohammad]

Duke, on Oct 29 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

If a pilot lost the motive of working, he or she wouldn't be conducting perpetual ongoing Medicals, Line‐Oriented Flight Training, Sim Evaluations, Annual Recurrent Training, so on and so-forth. Can you imagine how many of these checks and examinations a pilot must undergo in his/her career before becoming a long-haul wide-body pilot for a major North American carrier?

They would when they've got no other choice or better alternative. It's not like a pilot can exit his career and work as a lawyer without a university degree. Fact of the matter is, it's too hard for pilots to find something better once they're in the loophole. I know a pilot who worked for Kuwait Airways back in the 80s and 90s. The man was struggling in his financial life, and more often than not complained of becoming too careless because of the lack of reward. He tried so many different ways of finding a better alternative, and all he ended up with was an electrical appliance shop that made peanuts. Fact is, it's difficult for them to leave the circle, especially when they've invested so much of their life and time away to become pilots in the first place. Eventually they've got no other choice but to stick to their job, its routine tests and what-not, even if they are losing momentum.

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The "money" factor has nothing to do with HFACS and pilot fatigue at all. If I stay up all night, I'm not going to become magically more alert at work just because they pay me more. I dare you to find an example of a Commercial Pilot that has intentionally violated rules due to disregard of their duties relating to pay or motivation.

Nobody intentionally violates rules. People act careless over time, lose motive, etc. Airline companies treat pilots like slaves in the business. They know a pilot has nowhere else to go, most of the time. They know a pilot can't really complain much since he relies on the company to provide the planes to do the job, etc. Its not like other lines of work when, for example, a businessman couldn't deal with people in his company so he goes out and establishes his own company and becomes successful. A pilot is obviously restricted to being forced working for these companies, and these companies are pretty much like OPEC. All are treated like crap, it just takes one to spoil the whole fruit basket.

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If you screw up in aviation, you're dead, and so are your passengers. Do you really think money has a higher self-interest than that?

Only when you think pilots are intentionally committing errors as a sign of protest.

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I wouldn't necessarily perform more accurate and intricate work just because I get paid more. The ultimate goal in this field is to make as few errors as possible, and make corrective action when needed.

Hence a proper punishment and reward system that would ensure these mistakes do not happen a lot, and if they do will be penalized whether by financial means or job constraints. My overall point is, the system isn't good right now and needs to be changed.

=============

Bat Man: Nice comeback but you know it's not true. There are so many similar things happening on a daily level that go unnoticed. Back in January, I remember, a scary incident took place in Kuwait Airport when a flight rolling on the runway for takeoff was heading the opposite direction of an incoming airplane on arrival. The pilot realized the mistake in time, skid off the runway, scared the living crap out of passengers and went back to the main airport building. He blamed it on the ATC, which later turned out to be a fake excuse because he didn't want to upset the passengers. Did it get on the news? Not even Kuwaiti newspapers mentioned it.

The media isnt enough of a reason to persuade pilots to do their job right.