108 replies to this topic

[TheBearJew]

How about the motivation to stay alive!!!! That seems to me to be the overwhelming incentive to do your job correctly. Landing on a taxiway is a good way to kill a few hundred people if there were a few planes on the taxiway or waiting to take the active.

Pilots can whine and complain all they want with no worry about recourse from the airline. That's what the union is for. I have run into pilots who are not as passionate abotu flying as they were whenthey wqere younger, but none of them operate outside the SOP of the airline they fly for. If you want to get written up by your captain or co-pilot go ahead and bust a SOP.

Pilots have many alternatives than to fy the line. They can go into the training department or into managment positions. They can also offer consulting services.

Mistakesw will happen because humans are the final authority and until they find a better system we will have to put up with human error.

How this error occured is very interesting to me as it is nto easy to land on a lit taxiway when a lit runway is right next to you.

Edited by DC8SUPER72, 29 October 2009 - 08:20 PM.

[Cactus]

Thank you DC8. I don't know how things are run in Kuwait, but for whatever reason, this argument is really stretching the bounds of reality

Half the people in my office are pilots that only fly once or twice a month. They have normal desk jobs the rest of the time. The ones that aren't pilots are former Flight Engineers that are now qualified accident investigators.

There are jobs at my company that you wouldn't even know exist, Mohammed, and I don't think its right to jump to conclusions like that.

[THBatMan8]

moqool, on Oct 29 2009, 07:46 PM, said:

Bat Man: Nice comeback but you know it's not true. There are so many similar things happening on a daily level that go unnoticed. Back in January, I remember, a scary incident took place in Kuwait Airport when a flight rolling on the runway for takeoff was heading the opposite direction of an incoming airplane on arrival. The pilot realized the mistake in time, skid off the runway, scared the living crap out of passengers and went back to the main airport building. He blamed it on the ATC, which later turned out to be a fake excuse because he didn't want to upset the passengers. Did it get on the news? Not even Kuwaiti newspapers mentioned it.

The media isnt enough of a reason to persuade pilots to do their job right.

Yes, but to the ones that do end up earning a slot on the news are exposed to the general public in a way you wouldn't want to be exposed (IE the Northwest pilots). As DC8 and Duke mentioned earlier, a bad enough mistake will lead to a life and death situation that no one wants to be in (they had National Guard jets ready to intercept because of hijacking fears).

Mistakes are going to happen, as no one is perfect.

And I personally don't think there is a increase in errors leading to accidents. It's the same percentage as it was in the beginning of aviation but there are more planes in the sky.

Edited by THBatMan8, 30 October 2009 - 07:00 AM.

[Prancer]

THBatMan8, on Oct 30 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Mistakes are going to happen, as no one is perfect.

There are some jobs where there is no room for error, and should be no tolerance for big ones like this. This is one of those jobs.

[THBatMan8]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

THBatMan8, on Oct 30 2009, 06:51 AM, said:

Mistakes are going to happen, as no one is perfect.

There are some jobs where there is no room for error, and should be no tolerance for big ones like this. This is one of those jobs.

You are correct, but they will still happen. Every employer I drove for stressed the importance of safety, yet there were still accidents, although they were low in comparison to the national average, but they still existed.

You can beat safety regulations into every driver/pilot you employ (for example), but when one makes a mistake (and someone will) it makes the whole company look bad.

Edited by THBatMan8, 30 October 2009 - 09:00 AM.

[Prancer]

All due respect, landing on a taxiway, at night, when the lights are so obviously color-coded it's not even funny isn't a 'mistake', it's total neglect, lazyness, or both. If there had been a line of aircraft waiting to depart or even a loaded fuel truck driving down that taxiway, hundreds, at least, would likely be dead.

[THBatMan8]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

All due respect, landing on a taxiway, at night, when the lights are so obviously color-coded it's not even funny isn't a 'mistake', it's total neglect, lazyness, or both. If there had been a line of aircraft waiting to depart or even a loaded fuel truck driving down that taxiway, hundreds, at least, would likely be dead.

If it was neglect, laziness, etc then the pilots would have more incidents on their record (most 767 crews will have 20K flight hours under their belt). I'm leaning towards fatigue. You can be under the hour limitations but if you're fatigued or ill, mistakes will happen.

If they tuned the ILS but put in the wrong front course, I can see how the localizer deviation scale can mislead you (a DH isn't required on a CAT III ILS). I'm just as curious as everyone else to see the outcome of the investigation but we can't necessarily jump the gun and point to a conclusion.

Edited by THBatMan8, 30 October 2009 - 09:47 AM.

[Prancer]

Screw the ILS, Bat. The crew have EYES. They can look out the WINDOW and see 'those lights are WHITE, those lights are GREEN and BLUE. We need to land in the WHITE lights'. If the pilot was so fatigued he couldn't even figure that out, he was literally sleeping at the yoke, which is very bad. Or he's so dependent on the stupid computer it's a wonder how he can even use his own legs to walk.

Edited by Perriwen, 30 October 2009 - 09:48 AM.

[THBatMan8]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

Screw the ILS, Bat. The crew have EYES. They can look out the WINDOW and see 'those lights are WHITE, those lights are GREEN and BLUE. We need to land in the WHITE lights'. If the pilot was so fatigued he couldn't even figure that out, he was literally sleeping at the yoke, which is very bad. Or he's so dependent on the stupid computer it's a wonder how he can even use his own legs to walk.

Has anyone retrieved a METAR from ATL for the time of the incident?

[Prancer]

No, but does it matter? If the airport was in operation, at some point they're going to be close enough to tell what color the lights are, and if they see they're in the wrong colored lane, they should have enough sense to gun the engines and go around.

[THBatMan8]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

No, but does it matter? If the airport was in operation, at some point they're going to be close enough to tell what color the lights are, and if they see they're in the wrong colored lane, they should have enough sense to gun the engines and go around.

It does matter if they executed the ILS as CAT III C. Night or day won't make a difference if the WX ceiling is well below VMC minima.

[Cactus]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

at some point they're going to be close enough to tell what color the lights are, and if they see they're in the wrong colored lane, they should have enough sense to gun the engines and go around.

Have you ever tried "gunning the engines" in a 190,000 lb + airliner?

[Prancer]

Duke, on Oct 30 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

at some point they're going to be close enough to tell what color the lights are, and if they see they're in the wrong colored lane, they should have enough sense to gun the engines and go around.

Have you ever tried "gunning the engines" in a 190,000 lb + airliner?

Not sure what that has to do with it. If the plane gets lift and avoids killing people, then it works.

[THBatMan8]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

Duke, on Oct 30 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

at some point they're going to be close enough to tell what color the lights are, and if they see they're in the wrong colored lane, they should have enough sense to gun the engines and go around.

Have you ever tried "gunning the engines" in a 190,000 lb + airliner?

Not sure what that has to do with it. If the plane gets lift and avoids killing people, then it works.

Technically speaking, the 767 enters flare mode under 50' RA (if the crew was performing a autopilot landing). At 15' RA the A/T retards the throttles to idle. If the crew was to initiate a GA at this point, by the time it would take N1 and N2 to spool up to GA thrust, the main gear trucks would be on the tarmac (not to mention, you're at a high risk of a tailstrike also).

Edited by THBatMan8, 30 October 2009 - 10:12 AM.

[Prancer]

If the main gears touch the tarmac, get them off as quick as possible before you kill someone. Shut the A/T off and slam the engines full forward.

[roboa]

*Wonders if Perriwen is a real pilot (not that I am but...)*

It's really not that simple mate. As has been said, this is a heavy aircraft and it isn't going to go from idle to full throttle just like that. As has also been said, if the aircraft suffered a tail strike then that just aint good either is it?

Edited by roboa, 30 October 2009 - 10:22 AM.

[Prancer]

Yeah, I think it is once you get the smarts to disable the stupid computer. Once you go manual, the 767 isn't too much different to fly than a beech baron, just feels a lot heavier.

Edited by Perriwen, 30 October 2009 - 10:23 AM.

[THBatMan8]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 11:11 AM, said:

If the main gears touch the tarmac, get them off as quick as possible before you kill someone. Shut the A/T off and slam the engines full forward.

Even if you disconnect the A/T and place the throttles into the forward stop manually, it's still going to take a certain amount of time before N1 and N2 spool up from idle. Just for the record, but the EEC (Electronic Engine Control) engine limitation is inhibited for 5 minutes during a GA (2 minutes on takeoff). TO and GA commands full possible thrust (hence why sometimes crews will derate takeoff thrust).

[AmericanAirFan]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

If the main gears touch the tarmac, get them off as quick as possible before you kill someone. Shut the A/T off and slam the engines full forward.

If you "slam" the throttles forward. First off that can have damaging effects to the engine (Yeah yeah who cares heat of the moment blah blah....) But the engines don't magically go full power they take a good while to spool up, and by that time you may have lost a considerable amount of speed and be well under the speed needed for lift.... You would prolly end up spending more time on the taxiway throttling up than if you just stopped....

[roboa]

Perriwen, on Oct 30 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

Once you go manual, the 767 isn't too much different to fly than a beech baron, just feels a lot heavier.

Did you really just say that?    Have experience flying a REAL 767? If you do then i'll shut up and not return to this topic.