95 replies to this topic

[Prancer]

FL050, on Mar 25 2010, 08:49 PM, said:

Sad story.

The pilots are right though: there goes their military career, and they'll be heading to court.

Nope. One of the pilots was even promoted in 2007, and is currently a Captain for Southwest Airlines (a status he made in 2006).

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gus_Kohntopp

Edited by Tomcats_Forever, 25 March 2010 - 09:05 PM.

[Visionary]

A video of what friendly fire looks like on the ground in Iraq

ulHpAjUPco0

and what it looks like when its metres away from you in Afghanistan!

9YxDzunLGXQ

[usnchris]

Visionary, on Mar 26 2010, 09:57 AM, said:

A video of what friendly fire looks like on the ground in Iraq

ulHpAjUPco0

and what it looks like when its metres away from you in Afghanistan!

9YxDzunLGXQ

.....that second video was just absolutely gobsmacking... raining down. Scary stuff.

[George Bush]

These things happen. A bit like in September, an incident which nobody here made a topic about, an F15 killed about 43 innocent people in Afghanistan because some taliban trucks had broken down and the taliban told local villagers they could siphon the fuel from the vehicles as they wished considering they were no longer of use; not so soon after a German general ordered the attack of those vehicles. Terrible way to die.

[FL050]

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 25 2010, 09:02 PM, said:

FL050, on Mar 25 2010, 08:49 PM, said:

Sad story.

The pilots are right though: there goes their military career, and they'll be heading to court.

Nope. One of the pilots was even promoted in 2007, and is currently a Captain for Southwest Airlines (a status he made in 2006).

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gus_Kohntopp

Firstly, I said his military career - not flying career.

Secondly, it appears he was called to be sent to a British court:

"On March 16, 2007, the Oxfordshire assistant deputy coroner Andrew Walker ruled that the killing of Matty Hull was, "unlawful and the result of a criminal attack" ie the official verdict was one of unlawful killing.

Neither Kohntopp nor any other representative from the U.S. government appeared before or provided testimony to the inquest in spite of requests from the British coroner to do so."

[Prancer]

FL050, on Mar 26 2010, 01:14 PM, said:

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 25 2010, 09:02 PM, said:

FL050, on Mar 25 2010, 08:49 PM, said:

Sad story.

The pilots are right though: there goes their military career, and they'll be heading to court.

Nope. One of the pilots was even promoted in 2007, and is currently a Captain for Southwest Airlines (a status he made in 2006).

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gus_Kohntopp

Firstly, I said his military career - not flying career.

Secondly, it appears he was called to be sent to a British court:

"On March 16, 2007, the Oxfordshire assistant deputy coroner Andrew Walker ruled that the killing of Matty Hull was, "unlawful and the result of a criminal attack" ie the official verdict was one of unlawful killing.

Neither Kohntopp nor any other representative from the U.S. government appeared before or provided testimony to the inquest in spite of requests from the British coroner to do so."

And I noted he was promoted in 2007-which is a major advance in his military career.
And why should they appear before the British court? He's not a British citizen, and it would have been nothing but a show trial for people who have already made up their minds.

Quote

These things happen. A bit like in September, an incident which nobody here made a topic about, an F15 killed about 43 innocent people in Afghanistan because some taliban trucks had broken down and the taliban told local villagers they could siphon the fuel from the vehicles as they wished considering they were no longer of use; not so soon after a German general ordered the attack of those vehicles. Terrible way to die.

Welcome to warfare, and no one is innocent. In world war II, British, American, Germans, whoever had the ability would bomb entire cities without mercy. The civilian deaths as a result of mistakes in this war are nothing compared to how they were in the past.

Edited by Tomcats_Forever, 26 March 2010 - 04:13 PM.

[George Bush]

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 09:10 PM, said:

Quote

These things happen. A bit like in September, an incident which nobody here made a topic about, an F15 killed about 43 innocent people in Afghanistan because some taliban trucks had broken down and the taliban told local villagers they could siphon the fuel from the vehicles as they wished considering they were no longer of use; not so soon after a German general ordered the attack of those vehicles. Terrible way to die.

Welcome to warfare, and no one is innocent. In world war II, British, American, Germans, whoever had the ability would bomb entire cities without mercy. The civilian deaths as a result of mistakes in this war are nothing compared to how they were in the past.

I never said anyone was innocent, notice I noted it was a German general. I'm just stating the unjustness of war, not pointing fingers at any country in particular.

[mhockey21]

4dalulz, on Mar 25 2010, 07:54 AM, said:

RIP British Soldiers. Careless IMO

Almost half the video was them trying to confirm that they were hostiles, that is not careless.

[Liam.]

edit: finally got the video working, I knee jerk reacted.

But still, "were in jail dude" bothers me a lot...that's what you'e seriously thinking after murdering friendly troops?

Edited by Liam., 26 March 2010 - 05:10 PM.

[Prancer]

Liam., on Mar 26 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

I can't watch it, but I know this is the clip where on says "we're going to jail dude"

How about "OH MY GOD I JUST KILLED FRIENDLY SOLDIERS"?

Selfish...hmph...nothing nice to say about this...

I just love you people who whine 'selfish'. Ever heard of shock, buddy? You have no 'effin clue what was going through their heads, so do the forum a favor and shut up.  

[Liam.]

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

Liam., on Mar 26 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

I can't watch it, but I know this is the clip where on says "we're going to jail dude"

How about "OH MY GOD I JUST KILLED FRIENDLY SOLDIERS"?

Selfish...hmph...nothing nice to say about this...

I just love you people who whine 'selfish'. Ever heard of shock, buddy? You have no 'effin clue what was going through their heads, so do the forum a favor and shut up.  

I edited my post, I only had a vague memory of it because I couldn't get the video to load.

But my point stands, I don't care who you are...after accidently killing friendlies who just cares about going to jail? And then trying to justify it? "Orange panels"...if the orange panels looked like rockets on top, why did he say "orange panels" the first time he saw them? He didn't say rockets on top, he identified orange panels...

[Prancer]

Liam., on Mar 26 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

Liam., on Mar 26 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

I can't watch it, but I know this is the clip where on says "we're going to jail dude"

How about "OH MY GOD I JUST KILLED FRIENDLY SOLDIERS"?

Selfish...hmph...nothing nice to say about this...

I just love you people who whine 'selfish'. Ever heard of shock, buddy? You have no 'effin clue what was going through their heads, so do the forum a favor and shut up.  

I edited my post, I only had a vague memory of it because I couldn't get the video to load.

But my point stands, I don't care who you are...after accidently killing friendlies who just cares about going to jail? And then trying to justify it? "Orange panels"...if the orange panels looked like rockets on top, why did he say "orange panels" the first time he saw them? He didn't say rockets on top, he identified orange panels...

Maybe the pilot has his own family. If he goes to jail, who and how are they going to be supported? Most of these pilots have small children. How will that child grow up now? What about his wife? Will she be okay? Who's going to take care of them? I can't if I'm behind bars. And how long will it be? Will my children ever see or know their father again? What impact will that have on them as they grow? Will they go down the right path?"

Yeah..very selfish. /sarcasm

[bigflyersmallbyer]

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 10:17 PM, said:

Liam., on Mar 26 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 10:10 PM, said:

Liam., on Mar 26 2010, 05:02 PM, said:

I can't watch it, but I know this is the clip where on says "we're going to jail dude"

How about "OH MY GOD I JUST KILLED FRIENDLY SOLDIERS"?

Selfish...hmph...nothing nice to say about this...

I just love you people who whine 'selfish'. Ever heard of shock, buddy? You have no 'effin clue what was going through their heads, so do the forum a favor and shut up.  

I edited my post, I only had a vague memory of it because I couldn't get the video to load.

But my point stands, I don't care who you are...after accidently killing friendlies who just cares about going to jail? And then trying to justify it? "Orange panels"...if the orange panels looked like rockets on top, why did he say "orange panels" the first time he saw them? He didn't say rockets on top, he identified orange panels...

Maybe the pilot has his own family. If he goes to jail, who and how are they going to be supported? Most of these pilots have small children. How will that child grow up now? What about his wife? Will she be okay? Who's going to take care of them? I can't if I'm behind bars. And how long will it be? Will my children ever see or know their father again? What impact will that have on them as they grow? Will they go down the right path?"

Yeah..very selfish. /sarcasm

I think you've overlooked the first thing the pilot said:

"Let me know how those friendly are doing".

That's genuine concern for human life. I wouldn't call it selfish. But I see were you are coming from.

[fighter25]

The pilot was not selfish. Shock does a lot to you. He was very guilty saddened by what he did. Popov35 dealt with it by feeling sick and cursing. You can hear Popov36 weeping. They could have been mad/sad about either killing someone friendly, or about the repercussions to follow when they got home. I'd wager to say they were sad about both, but the killing someone was more on their minds than the court they would face later.

[Prancer]

Have to admire their courage, too...some people, after news like that, probably would have just nose-dived that plane into the ground as opposed to go home and face the consequences.

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 06:53 PM, said:

Have to admire their courage, too...some people, after news like that, probably would have just nose-dived that plane into the ground as opposed to go home and face the consequences.

That's what we call Personal Courage and ownership of responsibility. These pilots have a responsibility to their families and friends to accept the fact that what they did was a mistake and was a horrible thing, but they have a duty to go on and continue their lives.

Friendly fire is always a terrible thing in way, and should be avoided at all costs. But you can't punish someone for acting in a situation such as this where the pilot clearly tried to identify his target and during miscommunication resulted in dropping his rounds on targets appearing similar to the ones confirmed to him over the radio in an area relative to the one confirmed to him over the radio in a situation that requires quick action with little time to analyze the given situation.

[Flying_Scotsman]

"in a situation that requires quick action with little time to analyze the given situation"

Were you watching the same video.

These pilots are trained to identify ground vehicles, you hear the surprise in the voice of one pilot when the other says there are orange rockets on the roof.  The other pilot then tries to persuade his wingman that the targets are legit.  It wasn't a rushed, heated situation.  Nobody on the ground was taking fire from them.

They don't always get promoted.  I read the book "friendly fire", very interesting, similar in that the wingman tries to persuade flight lead to bomb a target when it is clear to the wingman that they are not 100% certain on the identity of the target.

http://en.wikipedia....National_Guard)

Edited by Dr...Watson, 27 March 2010 - 01:31 PM.

[THBatMan8]

Tomcats_Forever, on Mar 26 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

Welcome to warfare, and no one is innocent. In world war II, British, American, Germans, whoever had the ability would bomb entire cities without mercy. The civilian deaths as a result of mistakes in this war are nothing compared to how they were in the past.

Compare bombs and intelligence of WWII to now. Albeit, collateral damage still exists, it's nowhere near like it was in WWII.

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

Sometimes, you up. That's life. It's a horrible reality that occurs, but it occurs nonetheless. The military takes extreme measures to prevent misfires and FF, but sometimes it just happens. These guys are human, just as everyone else. They made a mistake that they have to live with for the rest of their lies. What do you want to do? Execute them for it?

[THBatMan8]

Falcon01, on Mar 27 2010, 11:35 PM, said:

Sometimes, you up. That's life. It's a horrible reality that occurs, but it occurs nonetheless. The military takes extreme measures to prevent misfires and FF, but sometimes it just happens. These guys are human, just as everyone else. They made a mistake that they have to live with for the rest of their lies. What do you want to do? Execute them for it?

I think a execution would be taking it to extremes, as they didn't kill friendlies on purpose. Worse comes to worse, possibly a dishonorable discharge would be in order, or removal from combat.