156 replies to this topic

[Cuan95]

Hi everyone, I'm currently a year 10 student looking to become a commercial pilot in the future.  The reason I started this topic is I need some advice for selecting subjects for my final years of school. From what I understand I need to be studying Maths, Physics, English and Geography. The Problem I face is that while I'm strong in most areas of school I'm not the strongest mathematician. Although I'm in the advanced class at the moment I'm not doing well, in fact I'm only just scraping by. I've got three options for next year as to which maths class I select, Specialist, Studies and Apps. Basically Specialist is the maths for the select few who are future engineers and so on, studies is still extremely fast paced, hard and with advanced topics and Apps is the more practical side of maths. After talking to other people In my school I've really been put off of the idea of Maths studies just because it's SO difficult with a tremendous work load. Some thing else I have to think about is to be in the physics class I need to be in the specialist or studies classes.

I'm looking for advice from other commercial or professional pilots as to what you would reccommend for someone in my situation and what subjects you did during your year 11 & 12 years at school. What level of maths is required and is physics a must?

I really appreciate any responses you give.

Thanks Cuan James.

[HighFlyin]

I never understood why aspiring pilots put so much into the academics side of things when what they really need is piloting experience.

First, take a trip to your local flight school and inquire about becoming a private pilot, after all, this is where you'll start. From there, you'll complete your commercial license. Don't forget about those ratings such as night, multi-IFR and so on. Your FTU will be able to better explain all these things to you once you start training and you're at that stage.
Once you're done your commercial, you'll have a few exciting options. Most students looking to go to the airlines will go on to get their flight instructor rating. Nothing wrong with that, but don't put all your eggs in one basket.
I know for a fact many airlines will hire less experience bush pilots then they will more experienced flight instructors. Reason being is a bush pilot has more experience operating in adverse weather, dealing with passengers and with tight schedules. Flight instructors for the most part never fly more than 15 miles from base and will quickly settle into a routine.

On to the academics. Forget the mathematics courses and all that BS. Take a business course, something that will prove valuable in the future, should you lose your pilot license/medical certificate. What you have to understand from this point on is a flying career is a fragile thing. A simple car accident or illness can leave you out of the pilots seat for life. You'll want a back-up plan.

Also, one last thing to remember, airlines are looking for pilots with flight experience to fly the planes, not a mathematics engineer with honors in quantum mechanics.

Edited by HighFlyin, 09 August 2011 - 07:55 AM.

[Leginmat]

Would you happen to be undertaking these studies at an Australian institution?

Edited by Leginmat, 09 August 2011 - 08:44 AM.

[_NW_]

The first thing you could tell us is where do you live?

The next thing is, what kind of commercial flying do you think you'd be happy with?  Here are a few examples of everything that fits under "commercial:"
-Passenger Airline
-Cargo Airline
-Corporate Jet
-Chartered Aircraft
-Medivac
-Flight Instruction
-Aircraft Sales (Commercial not needed)
-Aircraft Ferry

The next question is, where do you want to fly?

Now, I'll tell you right off the bat, you won't have much choice in what you fly, that depends on who hires you and their current needs.  
The next step is, if your future employer (or in this case, your dream job) has a website, see what their requirements are.  You can be as dumb as a brick and still have a Commercial License, it's going to come down to the employer to set individual requirements.  After seeing what their requirements are, look into what you need to study or do to fulfill those requirements.  Many airlines these days want college degrees, but they don't say what kind.  You can fly a 747 with a degree in baking if you want, to them, it doesn't matter..  but some jobs want specific degrees, those are the ones you need to look at.  

And just FYI, unless you're going to be a mechanic or engineer, you don't need to be Einstein.  I failed Algebra, I dropped out of Physics, I never took any Calculus or Trigonometry classes, I never stepped foot inside a college.  I started throwing luggage on the ramp, went to flight school, became a flight instructor and did that for a few years, and then went right into charter operations flying anything between a Piper Cherokee 6 to a Citation I, though most of my flying was between the Cherokee Six and a Kingair 200..  both, believe it or not, are commercial professions.  Both, can also be private professions.

Next piece of advice is, if you have specific flying questions, don't ask here.  Most of the guys here are aviation enthusiasts or flight sim enthusiasts, there are only a dozen pilots here, and we're scattered all over the world.  There are dozens of message boards on the internet specifically for most of the questions you're going to have, and you'll get more help from them than here.  Forums such as PPRune.org, airlinepilotforums.com, are your best sources.  Don't bother with "enthusiast" forums like airliners.net.  The difference is, having knowledge of, and actually experiencing it.  Knowledge of is hand-me-down information..   actually experiencing it is well, people telling you what they went through.  Of course you are free to ask here, but just take what people say with a grain of salt.  Here, everyone that they're an expert

Edited by HarryS_Truman, 09 August 2011 - 09:15 AM.

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

Just to add to Nick's post above:

Don't also take everyone's "you don't need to go to college to be an airline pilot" as a message to not go to school. College flight training shouldn't be taken off the table.

[Cuan95]

Thanks for all the replies.

To give you some more info in me, I live in Adelaide, Australia. I'm currently involved in a part time flying scholarship working towards my RA-Aus recreational license. I've also looked into joining the air force for a few years before going to commercial however that doesn't look like an option for me here in Australia as I'm already 6'3 and too tall to join.

My dream is to fly for a passenger airline, however I'd be more than happy to settle for a cargo airline. I'm not fussed about where I live and I'd be happy to move countries if need be.

I've looked the websites of a few of the airline I'd love to work for (Qantas, Cathy Pacific and Singapore) but the are very vauge as to what their requirement are. I'd really like to get a cadet ship with one of them and that is why I'm trying to find out academic requirements as i'd not like to be looked over for someone who has higher academic qualifications.

Thanks again for the time you all have taken to reply i really appriciate it, and ill have a look at those other forums.

Cuan James

[Leginmat]

Cuan,

How strange; I was in the same position as you and have the same ambitions and also just happen to be a fellow "Adelaid'ian"   (And here I was thinking this town is bloody too small!)

Seeing as I now have a bit of information to work with, I can provide some input. I'm no commercial/professional pilot yet but I'm 'climbing the ladder' and have had experience with an airline cadet interview and a few hours under my belt.

Firstly, regarding schooling; Science and Math based subjects will always look good on your resume and this has always been the case in the aviation sector in my opinion. I understand that it isn't a prerequisite and outright necessity to become a professional pilot if you already have the experience but employers, especially that of major airlines, look up upon students who have undertaken and achieved academically in such subjects. (Especially entry level such as cadet applications and as outlined in their minimum requirements).

Regarding your situation in maths; I was in the exact same predicament but in Year 11 instead. My math performance had degraded and I was not recommended to enroll in Specialist Maths course. However, I decided to take the plunge and I was enrolled in Physics, Maths Studies and Maths Specialist as part of my final year subjects. From my personal experience, I can pretty much assure you that the level of mathematics required in both advanced math subjects will not be required in the cockpit of any airliner and that indeed, Applications as you described, may prove more beneficial (I have not taken nor seen the material in the course though). However, I am not entirely discounting that you should not consider such courses as some of the material taught actually helps your further grasps concepts later on in your aviation career. I do agree with you that Specialist is a class for the high-achievers but I did find that Studies was a good, advanced level of mathematics that wasn't overly difficult to grasp but that is merely my personal opinion; it is up to you to decide. As a side note, if you haven't heard of MathsOnline.com.au, I urge you to sign up and make use of it! I would have died to have such a helpful and free resource when I was undertaking high school! It also provides a good insight into the level of mathematics required in the subjects of concern. Physics on the other hand, I find is highly beneficial and almost essential in applications as a pilot. I personally enjoyed this subject the most and the level of maths required isn't overly difficult anyways. The concepts you learn (motion, electricity etc) will help you greatly in understanding the material taught in aircraft systems, aerodynamics etc.

What I do recommend is that you do indeed, attempt to achieve a qualification outside the aviation industry as already mentioned. Whether that be a trade, a higher education qualification in a different field, do it. It's one thing I highly regret after realizing the volatility of this industry. Be sure you read as many resources and get your head around the industry as a whole and not just the flying perks.

Send me a PM regarding the cadet ship and I'll see what I can pull up. PPrune.org as someone has already mentioned, is a great resource; especially for CX's cadetship (Fragrant Harbour forums) and they're hiring cadets aggressively right now.

Edited by Leginmat, 10 August 2011 - 08:55 AM.

[HighFlyin]

Cuan95, on Aug 10 2011, 08:42 AM, said:

Thanks for all the replies.

To give you some more info in me, I live in Adelaide, Australia. I'm currently involved in a part time flying scholarship working towards my RA-Aus recreational license. I've also looked into joining the air force for a few years before going to commercial however that doesn't look like an option for me here in Australia as I'm already 6'3 and too tall to join.

My dream is to fly for a passenger airline, however I'd be more than happy to settle for a cargo airline. I'm not fussed about where I live and I'd be happy to move countries if need be.

I've looked the websites of a few of the airline I'd love to work for (Qantas, Cathy Pacific and Singapore) but the are very vauge as to what their requirement are. I'd really like to get a cadet ship with one of them and that is why I'm trying to find out academic requirements as i'd not like to be looked over for someone who has higher academic qualifications.

Thanks again for the time you all have taken to reply i really appriciate it, and ill have a look at those other forums.

Cuan James

Notice how you found educational requirements vague for the airlines you listed...That's because they don't list them. Why, because they don't put near as much weight into academics as they do into flight experience.

I find it comical (no offence) that you're already looking at requirements to get on board some of the top airlines in the world. You're still 10-15 years from that. Take things slow. Life is an ever changing labyrinth. Finish school, complete your flight training, and get those hours. That's what counts.

As I've said before, airlines want pilots, not professors. Yes education is important, but they won't turn away legitimate flight experience either. Get an education that you can be satisfied with, and forget trying to impress the airlines. The majority of airlines don't even require a college/university degree.

Don't take my advice though. I'm just a business school graduate with a commercial pilot license and flight instructor rating building hours.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by HighFlyin, 10 August 2011 - 01:00 PM.

[Battle_Penguin]

Dude, Go with the military funded aviation programs (Not sure about foreign countries, but the 9/11 bill in the U.S. can pay for your education.).

[THBatMan8]

I want to add a small note on a college degree,

If you ensist on going to a UNI, get a degree in something related to aviation. Like meteorology or business management. Don't get a degree in engineering thinking it'll be a good fallback option, because that's not how the business world works. Everyone wants recency of experience, so that degree in engineering will do you no good if you don't work in the field.

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

Richard_Nixon, on Aug 10 2011, 02:59 PM, said:

I want to add a small note on a college degree,

If you ensist on going to a UNI, get a degree in something related to aviation. Like meteorology or business management. Don't get a degree in engineering thinking it'll be a good fallback option, because that's not how the business world works. Everyone wants recency of experience, so that degree in engineering will do you no good if you don't work in the field.

Never get a "fallback" degree. Get something related to what you want to do.

Penguin_Mojito, on Aug 10 2011, 02:24 PM, said:

Dude, Go with the military funded aviation programs (Not sure about foreign countries, but the 9/11 bill in the U.S. can pay for your education.).

Don't count on it these days

Edited by Fate01_VUSAFS, 10 August 2011 - 03:30 PM.

[Chief_Bean]

You do know that most people do not work in a field related to their degree...

Do a degree in something you enjoy and excel in!

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 10 2011, 07:58 PM, said:

You do know that most people do not work in a field related to their degree...

Do a degree in something you enjoy and excel in!

That's because most people choose their degree because it's easy, common, or low-cost. You really need to find something that you can see yourself doing for the rest of your life. If you aren't going to bed thinking about it or sitting around when you're bored saying "I wish I was doing this" then it' not the career for you.

Aviation is fairly specialized, so your chances of sticking to the industry are higher than those who study to be accountants or business majors.

Edited by Fate01_VUSAFS, 10 August 2011 - 07:49 PM.

[.Andrew]

I can't remember the name of the website, but it was written by a professional pilot who gave some insight on becoming a pilot. He said the complete opposite, get a degree that you can fall back on. The airline industry isn't the most stable and he said there was a very good chance you could get furloughed or laid off at least once in your career.

I hope someone knows the website I'm talking about, it's a very good read.

[Cuan95]

HighFlyin, on Aug 10 2011, 12:48 PM, said:

Notice how you found educational requirements vague for the airlines you listed...That's because they don't list them. Why, because they don't put near as much weight into academics as they do into flight experience.

I find it comical (no offence) that you're already looking at requirements to get on board some of the top airlines in the world. You're still 10-15 years from that. Take things slow. Life is an ever changing labyrinth. Finish school, complete your flight training, and get those hours. That's what counts.

As I've said before, airlines want pilots, not professors. Yes education is important, but they won't turn away legitimate flight experience either. Get an education that you can be satisfied with, and forget trying to impress the airlines. The majority of airlines don't even require a college/university degree.

Don't take my advice though. I'm just a business school graduate with a commercial pilot license and flight instructor rating building hours.

Just my 2 cents.

I appreciate what you are saying and do take it into consideration because flight experience is a big thing and you obviously have experience in the subject. But I've heard stories of many young people leaving schools and getting into cadet ships. I went back and had a look at the Cathy Pacific website and found this: http://www.cathaypac...c_so_programmes
it does have some requirements and they are looking for people with maths and physics experience.
There must be thousands of highly experienced pilots out there who would all love to work at one  of the big airlines. but in the future wouldn't having those subjects on my resume improve my chances of getting selected over other pilots with the same experience per say?

[Iain_]

Haven't Qantas got something? If it's cargo you want then look at Qantas Freight or Australian Air Express. I'd go for AAE if I was an Aussie looking for a cargo job - 737-300  

[Leginmat]

Iain_, on Aug 11 2011, 09:41 PM, said:

Haven't Qantas got something? If it's cargo you want then look at Qantas Freight or Australian Air Express. I'd go for AAE if I was an Aussie looking for a cargo job - 737-300  

Unfortunately, opportunities for sponsored flight training and education are not only far a few but very difficult to secure in our country.

Unlike the USAF or RAF, flying positions within the RAAF are limited as with our inventory of aircraft. I know a lot of fellow colleagues who left the RAAF in favour of finding their own means to a flying position within the commercial sector instead.

Majority (if not all) of airline sponsored programs in Australia actually require you to pay a substantial amount of sum (usually around the figure of $90,000 AUD) even after you pass all necessary testings and interview and yet you are still not guaranteed a position upon successful completion. If you study further into Qantas/Jetstar's cadet schemes, you'll see what a ridiculous 'opportunity' they offer. Even our equivalent 'regional' airlines' cadet programs are of very similar nature.

Edited by Leginmat, 11 August 2011 - 07:36 AM.

[Chief_Bean]

Fate01_VUSAFS, on Aug 11 2011, 01:48 AM, said:

That's because most people choose their degree because it's easy, common, or low-cost. You really need to find something that you can see yourself doing for the rest of your life. If you aren't going to bed thinking about it or sitting around when you're bored saying "I wish I was doing this" then it' not the career for you.

Aviation is fairly specialized, so your chances of sticking to the industry are higher than those who study to be accountants or business majors.

Nonsense. Maybe at universities that offer a huge number of very narrow degree courses that is the case...

But at more prestigious universities with a smaller number of core science, engineering and arts degrees that really isn't the case.

[Fate01_VUSAFS]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 11 2011, 06:49 PM, said:

Nonsense. Maybe at universities that offer a huge number of very narrow degree courses that is the case...

But at more prestigious universities with a smaller number of core science, engineering and arts degrees that really isn't the case.

Art isn't really that specialized unless to focus on a specific are area, like textiles or something. Engineering isn't necessarily specialized either unless you pick a distinct concentration. Most people who go with a specific concentration are more likely to stay in that field because they already know what they want to do and are studying to get there. People who major in history, math, and science, even at top universities, aren't likely to go into those career fields because they most likely didn't choose something they see themselves doing for the rest of their life. If you get someone in their second or third year of college who says "I like it, but I don't know what I'll do with it some day," they aren't going to stick in that career field after they graduate.

[THBatMan8]

Chief_Bean, on Aug 10 2011, 05:58 PM, said:

You do know that most people do not work in a field related to their degree...

Do a degree in something you enjoy and excel in!

Yup, and every one of those people wasted their time and money getting that degree. That degree is useless if you don't use it.