162 replies to this topic

[TheCoCC]

It must be legal to do for FS, but GTA is a prime example. Modding the game as so many do IS illegal, and that's a fact. Reinstall your GTA and read the entire EULA. The reason R* don't care is, people only buy the PC version to mod it, so it's good money for them.

[Robin.]

Carter, on Aug 25 2005, 01:54 PM, said:

TheCoCC, on Aug 25 2005, 12:22 PM, said:

I'm not sure about FS, but in the EULA for most games, it clearly states that making addons for the game itself is illegal, let alone selling them.

You must be misreading, because the star feature of Flight Simulator is the creation of addons. I don't think that payware would have been being sold since FS 5 if it were illegal. Do you?

And also, why would Microsoft create a folder called "Addon Scenery" inside the FS9 folder if it was illegal?

[Ruahrc]

As far as I know (and I must admit I have no complete evidence to support), there are no developers out there who work full-time on producing and selling FS addons.  The vast majority of them (including FlyTampa, Scenery Solutions, and PMDG) are just enthusiasts who do this on the side of their full-time jobs and also families because they love it.  I don't think there's enough money in making an FS addon to support it being a full-time occupation.  If anyone knows of a company or group that makes and sells FS addons full-time, I'd be curious to know which one(s).

Developers feel that they have put enough work and effort into their add-on that people would pay money for it, and they feel justified in selling it.  Some want to give back to the community by releasing some freeware, others would like to make some pocket money on the side.  You don't have to agree that they are selling it for money and you don't have to buy it if you don't.<--- this is a general statement not an attack on anyone!

Call them entrepreneurs

Ruahrc

[Prancer]

Also, read on the officail Microsoft FS9 website all the SDK tutorials. Sounds like they're encourging you to make add-ons to me......

http://www.microsoft...wnloads_sdk.asp

[BaronDriver]

TheCoCC, on Aug 25 2005, 01:06 PM, said:

It must be legal to do for FS, but GTA is a prime example. Modding the game as so many do IS illegal, and that's a fact. Reinstall your GTA and read the entire EULA. The reason R* don't care is, people only buy the PC version to mod it, so it's good money for them.

Not sure if this is going too far off topic, but explain to me how this is illegal?

If I purchase software, ANY software, and I want to modify it, I am perfectly within my rights as the END USER to do whatever the ###### I want with it. As the END USER, I am not selling or distributing it to anyone else.  

Mfg's can write anything they want in their EULA, but the fact remains, once I own a licensed copy, it's mine to do with as I please.

Granted, it may void any kind of warranty.

Notice my big rolling eyes  

Edited by BaronDriver, 25 August 2005 - 02:54 PM.

[BaronDriver]

Ruahrc, on Aug 25 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

As far as I know (and I must admit I have no complete evidence to support), there are no developers out there who work full-time on producing and selling FS addons.  The vast majority of them (including FlyTampa, Scenery Solutions, and PMDG) are just enthusiasts who do this on the side of their full-time jobs and also families because they love it.  I don't think there's enough money in making an FS addon to support it being a full-time occupation.  If anyone knows of a company or group that makes and sells FS addons full-time, I'd be curious to know which one(s).

Developers feel that they have put enough work and effort into their add-on that people would pay money for it, and they feel justified in selling it.  Some want to give back to the community by releasing some freeware, others would like to make some pocket money on the side.  You don't have to agree that they are selling it for money and you don't have to buy it if you don't.<--- this is a general statement not an attack on anyone!

Call them entrepreneurs

Ruahrc

http://www.precision.../html/about.htm

[Brad]

I realize the original question has already been answered, but it's too good of a discussion to not get involved.

My impression of the primary reason why developers decide to charge for their software is simply because they can.  To my knowledge there is not another genre of game/simulation/whateveryouwanttocallit that is so full of people who are willing to drop as much cash on it as the FS community is (myself included!).  It also has alot to do with the fact that MSFS has been around for so long that it has become a stable enough platform to build a business model around.  And don't forget that it is one of those rare items that spans generations of age groups.  Not many other things do that!

Does anyone remember all the hubbub created when FSUIPC went payware?  omg  There was wailing and gnashing of teeth - it was sickening!  But the author: 1) had put enough work into it that he deserved some payback, and 2) knew that he could sell it.  

It is basically just capitalism at work - there is a market, so you can bet that someone will fill it.  In my opinion, FS2004 is the first iteration of FS to really see a proliferation of payware - sure we had some with FS98 & FS2000-02, but MS really opened up the floodgates with FS2004.  I think we will see another jump in payware products when FS2006 (of whatever they call it) is released.  There is already enough demand IMO to support several more PMDG/LDS-type companies currently, and at the rate that demand has been growing over the last two years it's not going to stop anytime soon.

[TheCoCC]

BaronDriver, on Aug 25 2005, 02:54 PM, said:

TheCoCC, on Aug 25 2005, 01:06 PM, said:

It must be legal to do for FS, but GTA is a prime example. Modding the game as so many do IS illegal, and that's a fact. Reinstall your GTA and read the entire EULA. The reason R* don't care is, people only buy the PC version to mod it, so it's good money for them.

Not sure if this is going too far off topic, but explain to me how this is illegal?

If I purchase software, ANY software, and I want to modify it, I am perfectly within my rights as the END USER to do whatever the ###### I want with it. As the END USER, I am not selling or distributing it to anyone else.  

Mfg's can write anything they want in their EULA, but the fact remains, once I own a licensed copy, it's mine to do with as I please.

Granted, it may void any kind of warranty.

Notice my big rolling eyes  

Perhaps adding stuff is not illegal. But on a lot of games if you check the EULA you agree to on installation, it clearly states that modifying game files is illegal. You payed for the product, not the owners rights to the game.

[diluted]

Take a look at FPS game communities, in particular the Half-Life community. There are countless mods for it, many of which thousands of hours were spent developing it by only a handful of people, and they never made a dime off of it (with the exception of CS and DoD, but thats another issue). I'm not saying it's wrong to make money off of something you worked hard on, but there's something very admirable about someone who makes things for free, simply for others to enjoy their creations.

Edited by diluted, 25 August 2005 - 03:54 PM.

[TheCoCC]

That's exactly what I was saying, diluted. People make huge things and spend months on it, but not for any amount of money, simply because they want to, and of the goodness of their heart.

[BaronDriver]

TheCoCC, on Aug 25 2005, 02:36 PM, said:

Perhaps adding stuff is not illegal. But on a lot of games if you check the EULA you agree to on installation, it clearly states that modifying game files is illegal. You payed for the product, not the owners rights to the game.

It's only illegal if there is a law backing it. What law is being broken if I modify a game?

Like I said, if I were to modify and sell the program, then I have infringed on their copyrights.

What if I were to make sandwiches and put a lable on there that said "Purchase of this sandwich is an agreement that the sandwich cannot  be altred in any way and must be consumed as is".

You either eat it with mayo and no mustard, or you don't eat it at all.

[TheCoCC]

LMAO, Sorry..ROFL. That example was hilarious, baron.

Anyway. Yea, you answered my point fully.

"It's only illegal if there is a law backing it."

And I haven't been saying that this whole time? "Some games in the EULA saying that modifying is illegal"

The operative word is some.

[[V1]-[VR]-[V2]]

and this all started wih the sentace: besides fs9 there are also other games

[TheCoCC]

Something from nothing, eh bud? lmao

[[V1]-[VR]-[V2]]

TheCoCC, on Aug 25 2005, 10:06 PM, said:

Something from nothing, eh bud? lmao

its the unknown force of the forums that make u change topic, no matter what!

[WillMcCaskill]

Jet_A_FuelGuy, on Aug 25 2005, 10:44 AM, said:

But Flight Simulator is as much of a game as Gran Turismo - Driving Simulator.

Never call Gran Turismo a driving simulator again! It has horrible physics. To get a driving sim with good physics you need to check out some of the computer sims like LFS (Currently has the best physics) .

Edited by WillMcCaskill, 25 August 2005 - 04:19 PM.

[TheCoCC]

[V1 said:

-[VR]-[V2],Aug 25 2005, 04:09 PM]

TheCoCC, on Aug 25 2005, 10:06 PM, said:

Something from nothing, eh bud? lmao

its the unknown force of the forums that make u change topic, no matter what!

Whatever force it sure got this one.

Edited by TheCoCC, 25 August 2005 - 04:25 PM.

[Chief Wiggum]

Jet_A_FuelGuy, on Aug 25 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

But Flight Simulator is as much of a game as Gran Turismo - Driving Simulator.

This is one thing that really pisses me off. Why would you give Microsoft more money for a game that you say is complete crap? Get X-Plane and you'll see how good FS9 is.

It's hard to believe FS9 has such horrible physics when add-ons like the PMDG 737/747 have been tested and approved by real-world pilots - some even practice procedures on them. If no static simulator can give you the right feeling, I would stick with the one with better systems and eye-candy!

Edited by Chief Wiggum, 25 August 2005 - 04:54 PM.

[TheCoCC]

Then again, it's a flight simulator, not a scenery simulator.

[WillMcCaskill]

[quote name='Chief Wiggum' date='Aug 25 2005, 04:50 PM'] [quote name='Jet_A_FuelGuy' date='Aug 25 2005, 12:44 PM'] Get X-Plane and you'll see how good FS9 is.

[/quote]
Yeah, he will see how good MSFS, and how great X-Plane is.  


[quote]It's hard to believe FS9 has such horrible physics when add-ons like the PMDG 737/747 have been tested and approved by real-world pilots - some even practice procedures on them.[/quote]

But the MSFS physics engine is crap. You can do all the tweaking you want to a plane, but it will never be that  good.