115 replies to this topic

[wyoairbus]

frontier colors look so much better on those buses

[fredrick_thy_grt]

+1

Buses look bad in SWA colors...so do 737s  

[Gym_Class_Hero]

flynryan692, on Aug 5 2009, 11:57 PM, said:

+1

Buses look bad in SWA colors...so do 737s  

737s have a sharper shape, so they can better handle exotic liveries like SWAs. A320s have a smoother shape, so they are better fit for eurowhite, and other smoother liveries.

BTW you should link savefrontier.org from your signature, it will get more people to visit them.

Edited by Gym_Class_Hero, 06 August 2009 - 12:08 AM.

[AmericanAirFan]

Looks like a good bid to me. I'd rather have WN buy them out and operate them independently than some other airline.....

[Gym_Class_Hero]

AmericanAirFan, on Aug 6 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

Looks like a good bid to me. I'd rather have WN buy them out and operate them independently than some other airline.....

But they WON'T operate them independently, which is the root of the problem.

[AmericanAirFan]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Aug 6 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

AmericanAirFan, on Aug 6 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

Looks like a good bid to me. I'd rather have WN buy them out and operate them independently than some other airline.....

But they WON'T operate them independently, which is the root of the problem.

*shrugs* It's a dog eat dog industry. WN said they would keep them as a separate entity and widdle it down until all the employees are integrated into WN. It's a shame if F9 leaves. But it's just as sad that Aloha, ATA, DHL, Airborne, and America West have gone .

[JG1324]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Aug 6 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

AmericanAirFan, on Aug 6 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

Looks like a good bid to me. I'd rather have WN buy them out and operate them independently than some other airline.....

But they WON'T operate them independently, which is the root of the problem.

I'm trying to figure this out. Why does it matter, is my main question. It's business, it's all about the green! This is somewhat similar to what SWA has done it the past...

Morris Air

Quote

One airline influenced by Southwest was Morris Air, founded by June Morris and David Neeleman, based in Utah and operating in the northwestern U.S. Southwest Airlines purchased Morris Air and absorbed the capital and routes into its inventory and service. David Neeleman worked with Southwest for a short period. When his non-compete agreement expired, Neeleman founded JetBlue Airways, a competing airline that also incorporates many principles and practices pioneered by Southwest, including building a positive, warm employee culture and operating a simple fleet.

Muse Air (TranStar Air)

Quote

Southwest Airlines has mostly pursued a strategy of internal growth, rather than by acquisition of other airlines as commonly occurs. However, in addition to acquisition of Morris Air (see above), Southwest did acquire competitor Muse Air in 1985, which operated McDonnell Douglas MD-80s. Muse Air became a subsidiary company, and was renamed to TranStar Airlines.

If Sean Menke or D. Dale Browning want to start another airline after Frontier goes, they can be my guest.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Just wanted to add, hope I'm not sounding like a .

Edited by JG1324, 06 August 2009 - 07:51 PM.

[fredrick_thy_grt]

AmericanAirFan, on Aug 6 2009, 05:28 PM, said:

*shrugs* It's a dog eat dog industry. WN said they would keep them as a separate entity and widdle it down until all the employees are integrated into WN. It's a shame if F9 leaves. But it's just as sad that Aloha, ATA, DHL, Airborne, and America West have gone .

Well, let me just point out, they all closed because they didn't have the money to operate, as where Frontier has the money and they are doing just fine. As for America West, they still live on, only under the name Us Airways.

[JG1324]

flynryan692, on Aug 6 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

AmericanAirFan, on Aug 6 2009, 05:28 PM, said:

*shrugs* It's a dog eat dog industry. WN said they would keep them as a separate entity and widdle it down until all the employees are integrated into WN. It's a shame if F9 leaves. But it's just as sad that Aloha, ATA, DHL, Airborne, and America West have gone .

as where Frontier has the money and they are doing just fine.

If they were doing just fine, why would they have filled for Chapter 11, and why are they up for sale in Bankruptcy court this month?

[Gym_Class_Hero]

JG1324, on Aug 6 2009, 08:51 PM, said:

flynryan692, on Aug 6 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

AmericanAirFan, on Aug 6 2009, 05:28 PM, said:

*shrugs* It's a dog eat dog industry. WN said they would keep them as a separate entity and widdle it down until all the employees are integrated into WN. It's a shame if F9 leaves. But it's just as sad that Aloha, ATA, DHL, Airborne, and America West have gone .

as where Frontier has the money and they are doing just fine.

If they were doing just fine, why would they have filled for Chapter 11, and why are they up for sale in Bankruptcy court this month?

Their creditor, First Data, was being a about how much they should get from ticket sales. They COULD have made a profit, it's just that First Data was asking for too much money. It's not like ATA, Ahola, or the others that ran out of money on their own. Frontier employees do NOT want Southwest to win this. A merger with Republic would better work out in their favor, plus it would give Republic a branch that uses larger narrowbodies.

Has a predatory takeover (one to simply kill off another airline) like this ever happened before? I've noticed that the industry has gotten more and more cut-throat in the last few years.

[JG1324]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Aug 6 2009, 10:35 PM, said:

Has a predatory takeover (one to simply kill off another airline) like this ever happened before?

TWA comes to mind for some reason. AA basically said one thing then over everyone at TWA. Here's a interesting post from 2001 about it.

Quote

American certainly is NOT keeping their promises about keeping TWA employees. So far all TWA agents, rampers and mechanics have been given a April 10th 2001 seniority date no matter how long they have worked for TWA prior to the buyout. At any station excluding STL if both AA and TWA have air service the TWA employees are furloughed. The TWA flight attendants are losing seniority as AA is subtracting their training, any leave of absences, furloughs, medical leaves, maternity leaves, family emergencies etc. from their original seniority date. For bidding purposes the TWA flight attendants have been put at the bottom of the seniority list when the merger is complete. A good friend of mine who was in my original Ozark class in 1980 will be furloughed as of Jan 02. All the employees at TWA's JFK base wil be furloughed or offered positions at STL only. All of TWA's transcon flights have or will be eliminated and replaced by AA flights.
AA also told the TWA retirees they will keep their travel benefits. Wrong! Mine was taken away without notice in May of this year.
I really feel for the remaining TWA employees what was hoped to be their saving grace by merging with AA has turned right around and bit them in the butt.

http://www.diecastai...ive/t-8758.html

[Battle_Penguin]

Toby Werner, on Aug 5 2009, 06:31 PM, said:

Doesn't look too bad at all!  

You know it aint that bad, IMO, Less saturation for the blue and it would look better..

[Gym_Class_Hero]

JG1324, on Aug 6 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Gym_Class_Hero, on Aug 6 2009, 10:35 PM, said:

Has a predatory takeover (one to simply kill off another airline) like this ever happened before?

TWA comes to mind for some reason. AA basically said one thing then over everyone at TWA. Here's a interesting post from 2001 about it.

Quote

American certainly is NOT keeping their promises about keeping TWA employees. So far all TWA agents, rampers and mechanics have been given a April 10th 2001 seniority date no matter how long they have worked for TWA prior to the buyout. At any station excluding STL if both AA and TWA have air service the TWA employees are furloughed. The TWA flight attendants are losing seniority as AA is subtracting their training, any leave of absences, furloughs, medical leaves, maternity leaves, family emergencies etc. from their original seniority date. For bidding purposes the TWA flight attendants have been put at the bottom of the seniority list when the merger is complete. A good friend of mine who was in my original Ozark class in 1980 will be furloughed as of Jan 02. All the employees at TWA's JFK base wil be furloughed or offered positions at STL only. All of TWA's transcon flights have or will be eliminated and replaced by AA flights.
AA also told the TWA retirees they will keep their travel benefits. Wrong! Mine was taken away without notice in May of this year.
I really feel for the remaining TWA employees what was hoped to be their saving grace by merging with AA has turned right around and bit them in the butt.

http://www.diecastai...ive/t-8758.html

What was TWA's status at the time of the merger? Was it consenting (like DL/NW)? Were they hopeless? Or did they have a chance for a comback (like Frontier?)

[fredrick_thy_grt]

The Bond-McCaskill bill was a result of that and should give the F9 employees jobs. I hope so.

[Gym_Class_Hero]

BTW did any members in Denver here about the "Save The Animals" protest? Anyone go?

[wyoairbus]

Gym_Class_Hero, on Aug 7 2009, 02:33 AM, said:

BTW did any members in Denver here about the "Save The Animals" protest? Anyone go?

no, when was it? i would have gone to it

[JG1324]

Well, its 100% official now, and they bid well above republic!

http://cbs4denver.co....2.1122117.html

Quote

All of a sudden Frontier Airlines is the popular kid at the dance.

Southwest Airlines bid $170 million on Monday to take Frontier out of bankruptcy protection, well above the $108.8 million offered by regional jet operator Republic Airways Holdings Inc.

Asked if Republic will bid at the bankruptcy court auction planned for Thursday, spokesman Carlo Bertolini said, "I think we'll be present there. What our next step is, I don't have any detail on that."

Frontier's route network looks like a spider, with a body in Denver and about 50 legs to cities around the U.S. as well as Mexico and Costa Rica. Southwest already competes in Denver with Frontier as well as United Airlines, which has a hub there.

Buying Frontier would give Southwest service in several new cities, and take out one of its two big competitors in Denver. Southwest would have about 36 percent of Denver passengers, compared with about 37 percent for United, according to an analysis by airline analyst Darryl Jenkins of The Airline Zone.

"This provides us a great way to grow substantially in a city that is very important to us," said Bob Jordan, Southwest's executive vice president for strategy and planning.

For Republic, buying Frontier would put it in the business of competing for its own passengers instead of flying passengers fed to it by big-name carriers such as Delta Air Lines Inc. and UAL Corp.'s United, as it does now.

Republic will benefit from Southwest's bid even if it loses at the auction. Republic would get roughly $20 million as an unsecured creditor in Frontier's bankruptcy -- more than it would have gotten previously, because Southwest's bid is higher. It also stands to get its $40 million debtor-in-possession loan to Frontier repaid, and a breakup fee of as much as $4 million.

Southwest's bid would leave unsecured creditors to get about 12 cents on the dollar, versus 8.7 cents under Republic's bid, according to Ron Ricks, Southwest's executive vice president of corporate services. Current Frontier shareholders would be wiped out under either proposal.

Southwest said it would keep all of Frontier's current markets, including Atlanta, one of the last big markets where Southwest doesn't currently fly. It would phase out Frontier's Airbus fleet in favor of Southwest's fleet of Boeing 737s over about two years. Southwest said it would keep about 40 of Frontier's 51 planes, rejecting leases on the rest as allowed in bankruptcy court. Its bid also includes Frontier's regional carrier Lynx.

Bertolini, the Republic spokesman, said the two bids are not nearly as far apart as it first appears because of expenses such as aircraft lease rejections included in Southwest's bid. Creditors other than Republic would only get roughly $5 million to $6 million more under Southwest's current bid, he said.

Helane Becker, an analyst with Jesup & Lamont Securities Co., said it's unlikely that Republic will top Southwest's bid. She pointed out that Republic had just $97.4 million in cash at the end of June.

"I seriously doubt they have the capital to do that," she said. "This is an all-cash bid. Southwest is going to write a check."

Frontier spokesman Steve Snyder said the carrier wouldn't have any comment until it finishes reviewing Southwest's bid.

Either airline would need approval from federal antitrust regulators to buy Frontier. But they're more likely to look askance at Southwest's bid because it would eliminate a competitor in Denver. Southwest also said it wants its pilots and Frontier's to agree on several integration issues before it finalizes the deal. Southwest spokesman Chris Mainz said that means labor groups must agree on the process for integrating their seniority lists, the rankings that affect pilot bidding for routes and schedules.

A bankruptcy judge had already approved Republic's bid. But the bankruptcy process allows other bidders to step forward. That's what Southwest Airlines Co. did on July 30, initially offering a nonbinding bid of $113.6 million. That was basically a placeholder to give it the chance to look at Frontier's books and decide whether it wanted to submit a binding bid.

Denver-based Frontier has been operating under Chapter 11 protection since April 2008.

Shares of Dallas-based Southwest fell 24 cents, or 2.6 percent, to close at $8.87, while shares of Indianapolis-based Republic lost 29 cents, or 4.9 percent, to close at $5.65.

[TheBigTurkey]

YES! Go SOUTHWEST!

[Gym_Class_Hero]

Aw . I hope Republic has something planned for the auction...

Edited by Da_Frontier_Fan, 11 August 2009 - 11:17 AM.